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by northsea junkie. 03/12/20 08:13 AM
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Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #209695
04/28/10 06:51 AM
04/28/10 06:51 AM
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Bob_Curry Offline
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I understand the "uncomfortable" USCG PFD issue. One solution is to wear a USCG approved inflatable waistpack! If freedom of movement is your issue, there is no substitute. It is not in any way bulky and doesn't ride up in your face. I don't do any offshore distance racing so this is a good fit for me when planning inshore races with other boats around. Yes, I have one, wear it often, and most of the marine retailers carry them.

Bob wink


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Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209700
04/28/10 08:38 AM
04/28/10 08:38 AM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Let me preface this post by stating that my regular class has the same "culture". We don't protest on technicalitites. I certainly don't intend to protest someone for not carrying the proper complement of USCG certified PFDs. Nor will I protest them for not carrying a paddle (which is required by our class rules), nor for a number of other rules that don't make a difference to boat performance.

Now, I'm in the market for a new PFD. My old one is - old. There may be nicer non-USCG Certified PFDs available (more comfortable, more features, whatever), but I will limit my choice to one that is certified. I have no doubt that I could get away with a non-certified PFD. Nobody in my fleet would protest me, and if ever inspected, I don't think I'd get ticketed. Nevertheless, the rules and the law require me to carry PFDs that are USCG certified, so that's what I'll do.

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
As a judge, it would be inappropriate for you to agree with any move to nullify one of the rules.

Actually, I've already stated that I'm sympathetic to that cause. There is no rational reason that a CE certified PFD can't be just as effective as a USCG certified PFD. I've also expressed my dislike that the wording of the rule puts us in the position of interpreting the law. Nevertheless, Coast Guard certification is the litmus test of efficacy in the US. My disagreement with the regulations does not excuse me from following them.

Quote
This is becoming a semantic argument on the meaning of terms "cheat" and "blame".

I reject the use of the loaded words of "cheat and blame".

Very well then, I will make the same argument without using perjorative terms other than your own. It will take a little longer.

Quote
My observation is that the class members ignore this prescription.... therefore, I choose to fall in line with the class philosophy.

If I may break this statement down logically, I see this as your argument (please correct me if it is inaccurate):
  1. Many of my competitors regularly break this rule.
  2. Never has anybody protested them for it.
  3. Therefore, breaking this rule is acceptable and correct ethical behavior.
In other words "everybody else does it so it's ok".

Quote
I have identified an individual who was uninformed about the class culture with respect to this prescription. He was essentially ignorant of this unwritten rule. I don't blame that individual. I chose to not follow the rule and follow the class culture.

I would assign BLAME to someone who was NOT ignorant of the class unwritten rule and used the Class 4 rule as a weapon to get a win in the jury room in defiance of years of class history. I can't say he would be cheating, he is exercising the letter of the rule ... I would blame him for his unsportsmanlike behavior in getting a win this way.

Continuing from the list above, I read this argument as:
  1. I know I am breaking a rule.
  2. It is legitmate for someone to enforce the rule.
  3. Nevertheless, if one chooses to do so, It is not my behavior that needs to change, but his.
To justify your choice to knowingly break a rule and the law, you call others "ignorant", "unsportsmanlike", and "fools".

Quote
The word blame to me means that I assign some misplaced moral judgment on the individual and defer some of my responsibility to the individual filing this protest.
Precisely.

Quote
I am clear that I accept responsibility and am not shifting any of that to the protesting individual.
In that case, I applaud your sportsmanship. I have difficulty, however, reconciling this statement with your previous ones.

Quote
My statement about changing the class or change classes is simply a practical course of action when the culture is in doubt.

I would not choose to return to a club that chooses to have their PRO go out of the way to challenge the class culture on this rule.

I have an alternate suggestion. Instead of leaving classes and regattas where the rules are enforced, why not just follow the rules?

Sincerely,
Eric

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: John_C] #209703
04/28/10 09:11 AM
04/28/10 09:11 AM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by John_C
Off topic, but I just learned this recently after getting into a discussion with a college racing team person. The person that was ooching was not cheating by college rules, and most probably aren't informed that they have their own set of rules so they don't know any better.

You are correct. College racing class rules modify RRS 42 (Propulsion). You are also correct that college sailors trained to employ kinetics don't always know that those actions are not allowed under normal racing rules. I once saw a senior judge pull a competitor aside and read him the riot act about his kinetics infractions on the water. He was a very good college sailor (and later became a professional sailor) but did not realize that the very actions he was coached to perform were prohibited by the RRS.

Another senior judge once told me that the ISAF Rules Committee were so unhappy with the college sailing rules, that they considered adding rule 42 to the list of rules that cannot be changed.

For what it's worth (probably nothing), in the anecdote I related, the boat was sailing on a beat to windward in little to no wind (certainly not planing or surfing conditions), so even under college sailing rules, ooching was prohibited.

But, even that wasn't my point. I was trying to express that as competitors, we are self-policing. When referees and umpires are not present to enforce the rules, we must accept a higher standard of behavior and follow the rules without external compulsion.

If you want a role-model for sportsmanship, look at ultimate frisbee. The competitors pride themselves that they are entirely self-policed - even at the olympic level.

Regards,
Eric

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209713
04/28/10 11:15 AM
04/28/10 11:15 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
1. Many of my competitors regularly break this rule.
2. Never has anybody protested them for it.
3. Therefore, breaking this rule is acceptable and correct ethical behavior.


Actually,
1) All of the competitors...
2) .... Nor have they initiated a protest.

3) Acceptable and correct ethical behavior ???

This is YOUR judgment and then putting the words in my mouth or suggesting that I judge my actions against your standard.

Your presumption is that there is some judge and jury measuring "Acceptable Behavior" and evaluating the "Ethics and Ethical behavior" of the situation.

Who died and left you or anyone else in charge here?

I take the view that ethics and morals are generated by the appropriate community... in this instance... the class community has no ethical or moral dilemma with nullifying this rule and the class members are not measured and judged against YOUR arbitrary standard of proper and ethical.

Look... if the class could strike the prescription it probably would. Individuals can choose to carry a USCG vest and a type 4 to align with federal law and the US prescriptions but they can't hurl the moral and ethical charges at members of the class.

The sport is self policing.. IE... its driven from the bottom. This problem is driven by the inclusion of federal law into the USA version of the rules of the game from on high. It's exacerbated by your willingness to judge "proper behavior" and declare that the rank and file are "ethically challenged".

The solution is simply to leave the moral, behavioral ethical NON issues alone. In the rare instances where a protest bubbles up... match the evidence to the rule and apply the rules. Leave the judging on moral and ethical stuff to a higher non earthly power.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209716
04/28/10 11:50 AM
04/28/10 11:50 AM
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brucat Offline
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OK, let's back up a bit.

There are clear rules in place.

There are unwritten cultural practices that are also in place.

The only real problem comes up when there is a conflict of the two, and there are sailors willing to use that as a weapon.

I think we've all essentially agreed that we all sail in classes where we know what will get protested, and clearly what won't, regardless of what the rules say. In our classes, at typical regattas, for situations that are undesirable, it is much more common for the group to talk to an offending sailor rather than protest them. It is only when the infraction is viewed to be more damaging to the class' health, and the sailor was warned and does not comply, that such protests are typically lodged.

There are, however, events (and likely, classes) where protests over minutiae should be expected. As mentioned much earlier in the thread, this would be anything remotely resembling an important event, such as a ladder event, nationals or higher.

So, other than making safety rules not protestable by a boat, and ensuring that the event measurer, OA and PRO is onboard with what the class desires, there shouldn't be any real issues for 99.9% of our racing.

For the "important" events, suck it up as part of the game.

John, does THIS help?

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: brucat] #209719
04/28/10 12:12 PM
04/28/10 12:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
OK, let's back up a bit.

There are clear rules in place.

There are unwritten cultural practices that are also in place.

The only real problem comes up when there is a conflict of the two, and there are sailors willing to use that as a weapon.

I think we've all essentially agreed that we all sail in classes where we know what will get protested, and clearly what won't, regardless of what the rules say. In our classes, at typical regattas, for situations that are undesirable, it is much more common for the group to talk to an offending sailor rather than protest them. It is only when the infraction is viewed to be more damaging to the class' health, and the sailor was warned and does not comply, that such protests are typically lodged.

There are, however, events (and likely, classes) where protests over minutiae should be expected. As mentioned much earlier in the thread, this would be anything remotely resembling an important event, such as a ladder event, nationals or higher.

So, other than making safety rules not protestable by a boat, and ensuring that the event measurer, OA and PRO is onboard with what the class desires, there shouldn't be any real issues for 99.9% of our racing.

For the "important" events, suck it up as part of the game.

John, does THIS help?

Mike


Mike... Has this SI instruction been tested... or approved by USSA?

I am not sure but I don't think you can change this prescription with the SI instruction.

I do remember events using the SI rule but they seem to have disappeared from my events over the last few years.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209721
04/28/10 12:27 PM
04/28/10 12:27 PM
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Short answer: Yes.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209722
04/28/10 12:36 PM
04/28/10 12:36 PM
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Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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You can't change the prescription, but you can change who can file a protest under that rule and you can change the penalty imposed for breaking the rule.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: mbounds] #209723
04/28/10 12:42 PM
04/28/10 12:42 PM
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Thanks Matt.

Mark, if it matters/helps, I've seen this in multiple events, for many different classes (Optis on up), with input from many different certified people from lots of different areas. The certifications include SJ, CRO, RRO, NRO, and IRO.

I'd say it's reasonably bulletproof.

Mike

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Mark Schneider] #209724
04/28/10 12:43 PM
04/28/10 12:43 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
This is YOUR judgment and then putting the words in my mouth or suggesting that I judge my actions against your standard.

Your presumption is that there is some judge and jury measuring "Acceptable Behavior" and evaluating the "Ethics and Ethical behavior" of the situation.

If you object to your behavior being characterized as "acceptable and ethically correct" - well, ok. How would you describe it?

Quote
I take the view that ethics and morals are generated by the appropriate community... Individuals can choose to carry a USCG vest and a type 4 to align with federal law and the US prescriptions but they can't hurl the moral and ethical charges at members of the class.

I don't intend to "hurl moral and ethical charges" against you (or anybody). I'm simply trying to counter the argument that it's ok to break the rules. I am truly sorry that it seems to upset you.

My view of ethics is that they are personal codes. I have mine. You have yours. My personal code of ethics includes following the racing rules. Disregarding rules that I may not like becomes a slippery slope of rationalization. Therefore, I choose to abide by this rule (and the law).

Your personal code of ethics is different. So be it.

Really, I don't care what PFD you choose. I'm not going to write you a ticket. I have no desire to protest you. Apparently, neither does anybody else. So, carry on. However,
  1. You are breaking a rule (and the law),
  2. You know you are breaking a rule (and the law), and
  3. You intend to continue breaking a rule (and the law).
Just my own personal opinion, but I would not present that as the standard of "good sportsmanship". In all honesty, would you?

Regretfully,
Eric

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Isotope235] #209726
04/28/10 01:01 PM
04/28/10 01:01 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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so is a CE certified floatation aid "safe"?


(isn't this what the crux of the matter ~should~ be?).



Jake Kohl
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Jake] #209727
04/28/10 01:03 PM
04/28/10 01:03 PM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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btw - to rain on everyone's parade - the T500 PRO ruled that CE jackets are out. USCG only.

I think this whole thread just about makes me sick enough to convince me that competitive sailing isn't my bag.


Also note that life jacket "modifications" violate USCG "approval" so everyone who has modified their approved USCG is in violation. Expect a protest if you are in violation. I'll be checking... you know... for everyone's "safety" and to make sure that someone isn't trying to game the system by saving .00000123414 ounces or .124151143 square inches of windage.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: ThunderMuffin] #209730
04/28/10 01:25 PM
04/28/10 01:25 PM
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california
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Should we change the thread title to Float baby Float?


Richard Vilvens
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Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Jake] #209738
04/28/10 03:54 PM
04/28/10 03:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
so is a CE certified floatation aid "safe"?


(isn't this what the crux of the matter ~should~ be?).



Them Euro-folks is mity itty-bitty...uz (north)Amurrikians will sink like bricks grin


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Tornado] #209791
04/29/10 09:03 AM
04/29/10 09:03 AM
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Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
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Is it safe? You tell me - I can state that last year for the Tybee. I put on a CE pfd, along with harness, vhf radio, cell phone, gps, epirb, spare shackles/hardware, leatherman, rescue knife, camelback, powerbars, etc. and jumped in the pool at the Islander.

I floated with my head and shoulders well above the water level...

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: mikekrantz] #209792
04/29/10 09:13 AM
04/29/10 09:13 AM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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I had a CE vest on with all of the above plus I probably have 75lbs on Mike and I had no problems swimming/floating during our capsize off of Cape Canaveral.

Oh I had a flare in my pocket too Mike.. neeya!

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: mikekrantz] #209793
04/29/10 09:14 AM
04/29/10 09:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline
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Well then,

Mike settles it, it IS safe, for him with that gear at that time, in a fresh water pool (less bouyancy)

;-)

Now, about that rule thingy.....


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Todd_Sails] #209799
04/29/10 09:33 AM
04/29/10 09:33 AM
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Posts: 69
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Lost in Translation Offline
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To me the CE life jackets are plenty safe, and the Tybee rules should be amended to allow them. Based on what I'm seeing in this thread, in Tybee I will now use a USCG life jacket instead of my CE one that is fully rigged with safety knife, hyrdo pack, etc.

John, do you think an amendment is likely?

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: Lost in Translation] #209800
04/29/10 09:34 AM
04/29/10 09:34 AM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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NO - they wont amend them since they don't want to be held liable if the coasties get involved.

Re: The Unspoken PFD Conundrum [Re: ThunderMuffin] #209802
04/29/10 09:45 AM
04/29/10 09:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
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oh yeah, I forgot about the smoke and aerial flares.

And yes Tad, your a$$ is way bigger than mine...

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