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Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: Gilo] #210516
05/08/10 09:39 AM
05/08/10 09:39 AM
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
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This isn't the place to fully explain my views on this issue. However, I do intend to explain myself in due course on the F16 Private Forum.
John & Gill just check out what I said in a previous post. I said something like; I don't intend to 'PAY' for a measurement certificate. Don't forget written in the F16 Rules and Official entry forms there are means to still compete without a measurement form so lets just see what happens.


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Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: Mark P] #210686
05/11/10 06:42 AM
05/11/10 06:42 AM
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Hi Scooby
I've been thinking about your offer to becoming a Class Measurer. I also think Paul is considering becoming a measurer as well. As we will both be at an Open Meeting this weekend we can discuss the merits and probably get back to you next week so we can arrange a convenient time and place so you can show us the ropes so too speak. I'm not looking to become a RYA or ISAF recognised measurer just a UK F16 Association Measurer.


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Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: Mark P] #210688
05/11/10 07:41 AM
05/11/10 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark P

I've been thinking about your offer to becoming a Class Measurer. I also think Paul is considering becoming a measurer as well. As we will both be at an Open Meeting this weekend we can discuss the merits and probably get back to you next week so we can arrange a convenient time and place so you can show us the ropes so too speak. I'm not looking to become a RYA or ISAF recognised measurer just a UK F16 Association Measurer.
Well, if you organize a training of some sort to get more measurers I'll join as well. It's probably a good idea to have a measurer at Datchet to stamp all those F16 in the parking lot.

Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: pepin] #210692
05/11/10 08:26 AM
05/11/10 08:26 AM
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Go for it! Imo, the more people involved the greater the understanding of the process. That has to be good for the class.


Pete Pollard
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Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: pgp] #210695
05/11/10 09:04 AM
05/11/10 09:04 AM
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Mark,

I'd assume you would apply to the head of the UK association (Paul, I assume) who would ok/ not OK it. and then it's a simple case of watching someone else do it a couple of times.

I've watched Chris Field do a couple of A classes and then it's a case of getting a couple of spirit levels and some tape measures and having a go!

Cheers Simon

Last edited by scooby_simon; 05/11/10 09:05 AM.

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Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: scooby_simon] #210713
05/11/10 11:47 AM
05/11/10 11:47 AM
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That's great news as Chris did offer to measure any A'Class this Thursday. Lets hope a couple of them will take him up on this offer so I can watch him. I have previously seen him measure Nigel Lovetts 'A' back in 07 as well. I don't think the platform is the issue here but I will seek his and other peoples advice on sail measuring.


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Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: Mark P] #210755
05/11/10 07:18 PM
05/11/10 07:18 PM
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Your part right, every boat having a measurement cert won't stop cheaters. However it plays a major role in catching them out. Non conformance to measurement certificate is the way that a boat would be protested to be able to dish out penalties for cheating.

Having the manfacturers supply the cert is the simplest way to supply certificates. Any part eg. Sails and mast could be approached the same way and just added to the cert. At the moment I have been writing the measurements of the sails I build in the tack. Makes it easy for the measurer to check the figures that way. Most sails come from the builders as well so it's easy for them to do.

The role of the class measurers would then be to measure a boat if a protest occurs.


Aido
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Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: Aido] #210821
05/12/10 12:40 PM
05/12/10 12:40 PM
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Oxford, UK
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Originally Posted by Aido
Your part right, every boat having a measurement cert won't stop cheaters. However it plays a major role in catching them out. Non conformance to measurement certificate is the way that a boat would be protested to be able to dish out penalties for cheating.


How is that better or easier than proving non-conformance with the F16 rules?

Paul

Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: pdwarren] #210874
05/12/10 08:07 PM
05/12/10 08:07 PM
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You don't know your protest proceedures very well do you?

So the main argument of your protest is that the f16 rules have been broken? Pretty vague to say the least.

Besides last time I checked the measurement certificate was part of the rules. So what is your point.

Every boat needs to have a measurement cert. I don't really care how we get them, it just has to happen.


Aido
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Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: pdwarren] #210877
05/12/10 08:27 PM
05/12/10 08:27 PM
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My point is that if the boat doesn't match the cert then that's some fairly hard evidence that there might be some cheating going on. Simple. Protest commitees like simple.


Aido
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Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: Aido] #210895
05/13/10 02:30 AM
05/13/10 02:30 AM
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
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The last time I read the rules you had to have a measurement certificate and paid your Association fees before being a memember of the F16 Association.
So in reality I doubt we have enough legitimate members (6) to make up a single National Authority a part from the USA perhaps.
It might be advisable for the GC to make a statement to clarify exactly what rules are and are not being enforced with perhaps a relevant and achievable time table for it's current (members/non members)to try to adhere to.
I'm aware that the GC are working hard to achieve ISAF recognition but as I have pointed out above I think they need to work on the basics first. There's a saying 'you can't run before you can walk' Perhaps the GC should re consider their priorities in regard to today's F16 sailors, racers.


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Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: Aido] #210930
05/13/10 11:22 AM
05/13/10 11:22 AM
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pdwarren Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Aido
My point is that if the boat doesn't match the cert then that's some fairly hard evidence that there might be some cheating going on. Simple. Protest commitees like simple.


Sure, not matching the cert means that there might be some cheating going on, whereas what we really care about is whether the boat is a class legal F16.

For example, if a boat weighs in at 1kg under its cert because it wasn't completely dry when measured, do we care? I say, not unless it makes the difference between being above or below class minimum weight.

In order to prove either you've got to measure the boat, and I don't see how proving non-conformance with the cert is any simpler than proving non-conformance with the rules.

Proving non-conformance with a certificate lends weight to the notion that an incident of cheating is deliberate rather than accidental as it suggests that the owner has gone out of their way to produce an inaccurate certificate, but I don't believe that proving intentions is relevant.

Paul

Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: pdwarren] #210936
05/13/10 11:49 AM
05/13/10 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by pdwarren
Proving non-conformance with a certificate lends weight to the notion that an incident of cheating is deliberate rather than accidental as it suggests that the owner has gone out of their way to produce an inaccurate certificate, but I don't believe that proving intentions is relevant.

Paul


The intent is that it is the responsability of each racer to make sure their boat is compliant to the rules.

Having a cert does some good in forcing each owner to make sure this is so.

I completely agree with Paul though, that any protest should be about confirming the boat measures within the rules and having a cert will do nothing to reduce protests, or make them easier to sort if lodged.

It is a very nice vehicle for the MAN to use to apply their taxes though. $75 dollar ISAF stickers,, fees for cert registration etc.

It is a big stretch of the imagination to try and equate any certification process to equality or fairness in racing - just bureacracy.


Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: Matt M] #210941
05/13/10 12:05 PM
05/13/10 12:05 PM
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Dude! You should be hyping Kelly Park. Nobody has given Ding a boot to the nuts in a couple of months.


Pete Pollard
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Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: pgp] #210948
05/13/10 12:52 PM
05/13/10 12:52 PM
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Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
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Make it a rule that the protesting party must pay the measurement fee if the boat measures compliant to the box rules...make the owner pay the measuring fee if the boat measures non-compliant to the box rules.

A very simple fix, for a very simple problem.

Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: Seeker] #211004
05/13/10 10:47 PM
05/13/10 10:47 PM
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Look fellas, making **** up as you go along is not clever. It appears that the GC is attempting to make the class ISAF. if that's what you guys want then you have to follow thier rules not to mention the rules of the class.

If you rock up to a measurement protest, you WILL need a measurement certificate. If the boat doesn't have a measurement certificate then it DOES NOT MEASURE. Even if the boat is within the rules. Full stop no more arguments. Your personal opinions are of little to no value.


Aido
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Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: pdwarren] #211024
05/14/10 05:41 AM
05/14/10 05:41 AM
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Listen everybody,

The measurement certificate is part of the F16 class rules and has been since the very beginning. You can't unilaterally decide to not adhere to that principle.

Now, I agree that the current EU procedures around the measuring are unsatisfactory, but that can never be an excuse to abandon the principle completely.

I feel the F16 class should arrange for official measuring of boats (on appointment !) at major events at no costs or reduced costs. I for one got burned badly myself last time I payed a 100 bucks for a measurement certificate and will be very supportive of a free-of-charge measurement procedure. If we all want a free-of-charge system then we'll have one, it is simply that simple.

With respect to the role of a measurement certificate. It guarantees that the boat has been in a full compliant mode at least ones in its life time thus forcing every owner to initially spend money on getting full-compliant components. If he still wants to cheat then he needs to spend ADDITIONAL money. Also, the RC can now always demand that the boat be restored to its original form knowing that the compliant components are around / had been around. This makes for a lot stronger case to enforce full compliance without any claims made to "sad stories". The certificate also has important political benefits. One of which is the fact that owner actively declared his boat to be fully-compliant (and was checked for it). This makes the charge of cheating alot more powerful when the boat is later found to be none compliant. Without the certificate the owner can always claim that he didn't know. With a certificate he can't. Note in this example that the rules explicetly state that any new (measureable) item that is replaced requires a remeasuring (of that item) and that doing so is the responsibility of the owner. Thus it creates an environment where the responsibilty of the owner is made very clear. Another important aspect is to make sure the suppliers are delivering on spec products. The Central class organisation gethers the measured data (perferable when the boat is completely new) and can present the suppliers with accurately measured off-sets and easily show a trend. The supplier has then no choice but to quickly improve the situation or risk losing his F16 related business. This is not academic as such a thing has already happened in the past with sails for example.

I won't adress all related issues in this post, but there is more to the whole measuring principle then just making the lives of the owners difficult. So everyone is kindly ask to comply with this and stop being only focussed on your own specific situation.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/14/10 05:58 AM.

Wouter Hijink
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Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: Aido] #211026
05/14/10 06:03 AM
05/14/10 06:03 AM
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ISAF ?

Ever since the Tornado got dumped, I have absolutely no interest in seeing the F16 class get ISAF certified.

Thus I feel that that policy can just as well be terminated altogether now.

It is pretty stupid to pay good money to an organisation that doesn't "recognize you" in any meaningful way.

So what that we can't have an official "World Championship" ? Seems we are pretty happy with our "Global Challenge Cups" anyway.

We can spend that money alot more wisely on projects that actually do advance the F16 class as a whole.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: Mark P] #211128
05/15/10 08:34 AM
05/15/10 08:34 AM
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Western Australia
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last I looked, I believe, there were enough boats in the Australian get together to make the class a "National" class..

To accomplish this the class needs boats representing at least 3 state fleets and a specified number of boats.. Both were accomplished this year. So Australia would join USA as a "National Authority"...

Re: Bala Cat Open - race report [Re: Stewart] #211236
05/17/10 05:17 AM
05/17/10 05:17 AM
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
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That is good! Here in the UK there must be around 40 F16's approx six are paid members and I doubt ONE has a F16 measurement certificate. Thus we are definitely not entitled to National Authority status. The point I was getting to is that being a paid member of the Association isn't enough you should have a measurement cert as well before being able to join and only these figures should account to NA status.


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