I know that this topic must have been discussed a number of times. That is actually no reason to try again...

Personally i would like to see F18's to get lighter. Modern building techniques enable lighter boats without the need of expensive materials which would drive up costs.

Yes of course, changing the weight of a 'new' F18 would make older F18's obsolete. But you have to make a change sometimes.....

An interview with Martin Fisher on Catsailingnews (see link below) triggered me to post this thread.
http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/

What do you, F18 sailors around the world, think of changing the weight of our F18's to (for example) 140kg, like suggested by Martin Fisher? (see quote below on the future of an olympic cat)


CS-Which boat should be used? Tornado, any current F18, or a special new design created for the games?
MF:The Tornado is a nice boat but the design is no longer up to date and I think it is time to look for something new. The F18 is a very active Class and choosing a current boat could be a solution. In that case I have (of course) a strong preference for the Wild Cat. On the other side I think a boat with foils would be nice. So I think an F18 like boat with foils should be used for the games in 2016.
I think 18 ft with a beam of 2.5 m would be a good choice. Transport is much easier than with a wider boat and such a boat would be significantly cheaper than a 20-ft boat. I would also like to see the weight come down a bit, but not to extreme levels. I reckon a weight of around 140 kg would be a good compromise between performance and cost.

"Alex. I'll take 'bad ideas for $100"

Take a successful box rule, change it, and anger a successful competitive class, while obsoleting all the current boats?

Ummm, No thanks...

If the F18 box rule changed to make lighter boats, I think many would leave the fleet, and irrepairable harm would occur.

Where I see changes in the class are much more incremental, and afford no real equipment advantages...Carbon fiber spin poles, booms, and tiller sticks (i.e. stuff that bends/busts), newer sail plans... but overall, the box should stay mostly as is.


If it ain't broke...

Actually, it wouldn't bother me to see the weight come down over a phased period with specific milestones... not to 140, but maybe 165 over five years, or three kg a year. I know that with a little bit of work, you could lighten most current F18s by three kg at least. Nearly all new boats are coming in one or two kg light already. Or maybe we could look at a platform and crew live-weight combo like other classes do. Seems silly to make a 165 kg team add one kg of boat weight....

Do I want to take on the task of pissing off the class? Hell no. Am I opposed to lowering the platform weight? Hell no.

F18HT?

Not no but F!@@# NO!

Come on! There are plenty of boats out there that could be lighter, and are not. It keeps the class happy not to have to buy a boat every year to keep competitive. If we keep things mostly the same then people considering the class will be able to afford competitive boats.

I like the class, I like the box rule. We have a great foothold to build the class and changing things will be devastating to the class! This is, maybe, the best box built boat...ever. Please, if you can, tell me one other that has a better following. Best yet is that it is a catamaran. This is great as we all like to sail Cats. Imagine if the best box rule boat were a keelboat?

One start, many manufacturers, different looks, all sailing to the same time...this is brilliant!

Later,
Dan

If you lengthen the F18 by 300mm, keep the same width of 2500mm then lighten it to 140kg, allow carbon tillers, crossbars, bigger spinnaker, keep the big head sail with no carbon mast then you’ll have a 5.7 Taipan

FYI, F18 is to wide to tow flat legally in Australia. If you have to tilt, may as well have a wide enogh beam to warrant it. Tilting is not really an issue either...... Those who bitch about it are usually those who have never done it and raced a big beam boat. Give me a 10 foot + wide boat any day.

A reason why Martin Fisher would have a preferance for the Wildcat is because it is the only Martin Fisher designed F18 in production now with the Capricorn being superseded by the C2.

How about the C2 for men and Viper for Women.

Actually, I would not want to see any F18 past or present. Could really do a lot of damage to the class. My first preferance is the Tornado. The new Nacra F20 would be an interesting choice though.

As for boat weight, reducing a class weight limit is a lot trickier the increasing it. If you were to do it with minimal damage to the class, then incremental decreases as JW pointed out would be the only way.

Does the class need to drop weight to improve or remain a competitive product in the market place....... No chance. Don't f@ck with a good thing.

BTW, the Fisher Interview is a bloody good read.

Manufactures could reduce the weight of the F18 without structural and cost problems. I can't think of a down side to this at all... except it would instantly split the class into two, regardless of the time frame.

Despite all the benefits of a weight reduction I don't believe it would be remotely good for the class. That being said if the F18 powers said the weight was going to go down I wouldn't object.

The difference between 180 kg and 165kg is not really noticable when manuvering a boat on and off the water (ie F18 v's Tornado) especially with good beach wheels, so I don't realy see the advantages of reducing the weight if it could cause a split in the class. However this is just my opinion and I am not a current F18 sailor.

I got the impression he was talking about an Olympic class of F18 type boats. Built to fit F18 rule with the exception of the weight. In olympic class races you race it light. For F18 box rule regattas you add weight and race at 180. This could be a win win for both F18 and olympics. The F18 fleets/builders get the advantage of R&D done by the olympic sailors and addition of more olympic sailors racing the F18 regattas. The olympics get a larger pool of talent and more regattas for training.

I'm still very much in favor of the Tiger as the Olympic boat, but it looks like Hobie Cat is positioning the Wildcat as their offering. I very much enjoyed the read, too - Martin is doing a really nice job with that web site. I'm not in favor of the Wildcat as an Olympic boat - that would be bad for the F18 Class.

I'd suggest that the goal of any change should be to increase participation. Outside of Europe, a lot of crews are well above 150 kg. As one of those people, I find it extremely frustrating.

If I were to change the class, it would be to equalize crew weight differences. The goal would be for everyone to have the same combined crew + boat weight and the same righting moment. For example:

The current rules (2.6 m beam, 180 kg):
180 kg boat + 150 kg crew = 330 kg total weight
(180 kg boat * 1.3 m offset) + (150 kg crew * 3 m offset) = 684 m kg

A proposed boat for us big guys (2.5 m beam, 165 kg):
165 kg boat + 165 kg crew = 330 kg total weight
(165 kg boat * 1.25 m offset) + (165 kg crew * 2.9 m offset) = 685 m kg

You just made your used 165 kg boat very very hard to sell. ;-)

Why is this being discussed? The F-18 is a great class that is experienceing tremendous success within the established box rule. Why mess with it? If you want to argue boat weight, take it to the F-16 forum. They love to do that over there!

How so? What's wrong with a 165 kg boat carrying a 15 kg corrector weight so that small people can sail it?

I would expect that only heavy teams would be interested in the light boat, with lighter teams shopping for boats closer to weight. That sort of arrangement would narrow an already small market for used boats, I think. And how excited would builders be to have to deal with special order boat weights?

Meh. For a long time to come there will be a market for entry level F18s. If I had a say, I'd be trying to get some younger dudes (that may not have a grip of $$ laying around) on them, otherwise the class will run into the same issues every other cat class is falling victim to...an aging population. Let's face it, new F18s cost a little coin. Used boats give the 20-somethings a chance to join the class.

You have to get a broker's license to broker used boats here in CA though, and a dealer's bond.

First, I don't see any need to adopt any sort of class weight change. I'm just frustrated because I'm big boned.

I would have thought the objection to my idea was the different beam lengths not the weight. The only easy way I can come up with to do it is to have two different sized beams (same extrusion profile though) and tiller crossbars. A creative manufacturer might be able to do something telescoping.

I don't see a reason why a 15 kg lighter boat would be any less valuable. It won't be that much less stiff. Also, there will be more people to sell to because more people can be at a competitive weight.

Not being able to sell a used boat is because the number of people participating in our are is not growing. A few new people are starting to show up. But, an equal number of people are no longer showing up. This is why I suggested making a special boat for big dudes that would otherwise be uncompetitive.

I agree with Surf City. I think I am the only one that participates in F18 on the west coast under 35.

Part of the problem is that 99% of our sailors originally sailed other catamaran classes. That doesn't add to the catamaran community or the sailing community. To grow we need to actively promote our class to young people. By that I mean take people who you think would enjoy sailing an F18 out on your boat. Even go as far as using them for crew in a regatta.

If my boat would have cost $20K when I was 22 (they used to be under $15K), I would have bought something else.

The obsolite Tiger or obsolite Capricorn????? They are both slow now that new models have come out and it would not impact the F18 class at all

Stick it in your $ear!!! Usually it is instigated and/or perpetuated by F18 sailors poking their nose in F16 business. Macca is a classic example though he is not alone. Notice how the F16 class is staying out of this, not to say we are not lurking.

I certainly agree that the cost of an F-18 ain't cheap (new or used). But lets compare costs with another popular one design class (here in the states). A new Melges 24 is in excess of $60k. A used one will set you back $30-40k (for a competitive one). The cost to campaign a M24 is many times that of an F-18. I regularly race on M24's. The fun factor between the two is not even close. Many of the M24 sailors sail the boat because they love the speed. Well, if it's speed they want, they could get a whole lot more for a whole lot less!

I think they need to make an olympic class 18. It would be like an f18, just lighter. It could be made by just lightening up the current f18's. It could kind of be like the difference between the club 420 vs the i420. Just a thought. I don't really know what I'm talking about. I guess it'd be more complicated than I think.

But no one under 40 owns a M24. I bet 95% of the owners used to own something like a J/24. I heard they weren't a growing class either.

That is correct, but not really the point I was trying to make. Racing beachcats provides a tremendous value for the dollar. Far greater than sportboats do, and a whole bunch more fun too (in my opinion)!

There are plenty of guys under 40 that own M24's but that's besides the point.
I'm not even going to get involved in this discussion because the idea of doing anything more than changing a small rule here and there to a class that is doing really well currently is rediculous!

Well that's not entirely right. You can legally tow it flat in Australia. All you need are wide load signs on each end which I have seen done on many occasions. (Most including me don't bother)

Cheers
Tiger Mike

Probably the only way a weight change could be done would be incrimentaly.

Do it a pound a year down to whatever number the class would like to see. Most are built 10lbs underweight right now anyway aren't they? By the time the minimum has dropped that ten pounds the overweight boats aren't being raced any longer anyway. It'd give plenty of time for technology and engineering to keep up.

And just think, in a short 396 years, the boats would be down to zero......