Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
F18 from 180kg to 140kg? #211262
05/17/10 10:37 AM
05/17/10 10:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39
I
iMax Offline OP
newbie
iMax  Offline OP
newbie
I

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39
I know that this topic must have been discussed a number of times. That is actually no reason to try again...

Personally i would like to see F18's to get lighter. Modern building techniques enable lighter boats without the need of expensive materials which would drive up costs.

Yes of course, changing the weight of a 'new' F18 would make older F18's obsolete. But you have to make a change sometimes.....

An interview with Martin Fisher on Catsailingnews (see link below) triggered me to post this thread.
http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/

What do you, F18 sailors around the world, think of changing the weight of our F18's to (for example) 140kg, like suggested by Martin Fisher? (see quote below on the future of an olympic cat)


CS-Which boat should be used? Tornado, any current F18, or a special new design created for the games?
MF:The Tornado is a nice boat but the design is no longer up to date and I think it is time to look for something new. The F18 is a very active Class and choosing a current boat could be a solution. In that case I have (of course) a strong preference for the Wild Cat. On the other side I think a boat with foils would be nice. So I think an F18 like boat with foils should be used for the games in 2016.
I think 18 ft with a beam of 2.5 m would be a good choice. Transport is much easier than with a wider boat and such a boat would be significantly cheaper than a 20-ft boat. I would also like to see the weight come down a bit, but not to extreme levels. I reckon a weight of around 140 kg would be a good compromise between performance and cost.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: iMax] #211264
05/17/10 11:03 AM
05/17/10 11:03 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 297
R
rexdenton Offline
enthusiast
rexdenton  Offline
enthusiast
R

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 297
"Alex. I'll take 'bad ideas for $100"

Take a successful box rule, change it, and anger a successful competitive class, while obsoleting all the current boats?

Ummm, No thanks...

If the F18 box rule changed to make lighter boats, I think many would leave the fleet, and irrepairable harm would occur.

Where I see changes in the class are much more incremental, and afford no real equipment advantages...Carbon fiber spin poles, booms, and tiller sticks (i.e. stuff that bends/busts), newer sail plans... but overall, the box should stay mostly as is.


If it ain't broke...


Nacra F18 #856
Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: rexdenton] #211273
05/17/10 12:46 PM
05/17/10 12:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Actually, it wouldn't bother me to see the weight come down over a phased period with specific milestones... not to 140, but maybe 165 over five years, or three kg a year. I know that with a little bit of work, you could lighten most current F18s by three kg at least. Nearly all new boats are coming in one or two kg light already. Or maybe we could look at a platform and crew live-weight combo like other classes do. Seems silly to make a 165 kg team add one kg of boat weight....

Do I want to take on the task of pissing off the class? Hell no. Am I opposed to lowering the platform weight? Hell no.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: iMax] #211279
05/17/10 03:45 PM
05/17/10 03:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
F18HT?

Not no but F!@@# NO!



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: David Ingram] #211291
05/17/10 08:36 PM
05/17/10 08:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Dan_Delave Offline
old hand
Dan_Delave  Offline
old hand

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Come on! There are plenty of boats out there that could be lighter, and are not. It keeps the class happy not to have to buy a boat every year to keep competitive. If we keep things mostly the same then people considering the class will be able to afford competitive boats.

I like the class, I like the box rule. We have a great foothold to build the class and changing things will be devastating to the class! This is, maybe, the best box built boat...ever. Please, if you can, tell me one other that has a better following. Best yet is that it is a catamaran. This is great as we all like to sail Cats. Imagine if the best box rule boat were a keelboat?

One start, many manufacturers, different looks, all sailing to the same time...this is brilliant!

Later,
Dan

Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: iMax] #211299
05/18/10 03:44 AM
05/18/10 03:44 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
veteran
JeffS  Offline
veteran

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
Originally Posted by iMax

CS-Which boat should be used? Tornado, any current F18, or a special new design created for the games?
MF:The Tornado is a nice boat but the design is no longer up to date and I think it is time to look for something new. The F18 is a very active Class and choosing a current boat could be a solution. In that case I have (of course) a strong preference for the Wild Cat. On the other side I think a boat with foils would be nice. So I think an F18 like boat with foils should be used for the games in 2016.
I think 18 ft with a beam of 2.5 m would be a good choice. Transport is much easier than with a wider boat and such a boat would be significantly cheaper than a 20-ft boat. I would also like to see the weight come down a bit, but not to extreme levels. I reckon a weight of around 140 kg would be a good compromise between performance and cost.


If you lengthen the F18 by 300mm, keep the same width of 2500mm then lighten it to 140kg, allow carbon tillers, crossbars, bigger spinnaker, keep the big head sail with no carbon mast then you’ll have a 5.7 Taipan

Attached Files
5.7 with spin.jpg (606 downloads)

Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: JeffS] #211303
05/18/10 05:15 AM
05/18/10 05:15 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
FYI, F18 is to wide to tow flat legally in Australia. If you have to tilt, may as well have a wide enogh beam to warrant it. Tilting is not really an issue either...... Those who bitch about it are usually those who have never done it and raced a big beam boat. Give me a 10 foot + wide boat any day.

A reason why Martin Fisher would have a preferance for the Wildcat is because it is the only Martin Fisher designed F18 in production now with the Capricorn being superseded by the C2.

How about the C2 for men and Viper for Women.

Actually, I would not want to see any F18 past or present. Could really do a lot of damage to the class. My first preferance is the Tornado. The new Nacra F20 would be an interesting choice though.

As for boat weight, reducing a class weight limit is a lot trickier the increasing it. If you were to do it with minimal damage to the class, then incremental decreases as JW pointed out would be the only way.

Does the class need to drop weight to improve or remain a competitive product in the market place....... No chance. Don't f@ck with a good thing.

BTW, the Fisher Interview is a bloody good read.


Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #211309
05/18/10 05:59 AM
05/18/10 05:59 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 120
B
Brett Goodall Offline
member
Brett Goodall  Offline
member
B

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 120
Manufactures could reduce the weight of the F18 without structural and cost problems. I can't think of a down side to this at all... except it would instantly split the class into two, regardless of the time frame.

Despite all the benefits of a weight reduction I don't believe it would be remotely good for the class. That being said if the F18 powers said the weight was going to go down I wouldn't object.

Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: Brett Goodall] #211310
05/18/10 06:11 AM
05/18/10 06:11 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
The difference between 180 kg and 165kg is not really noticable when manuvering a boat on and off the water (ie F18 v's Tornado) especially with good beach wheels, so I don't realy see the advantages of reducing the weight if it could cause a split in the class. However this is just my opinion and I am not a current F18 sailor.


Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #211333
05/18/10 10:06 AM
05/18/10 10:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 67
Daytona Beach
Jeff_Bowers Offline
journeyman
Jeff_Bowers  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 67
Daytona Beach
I got the impression he was talking about an Olympic class of F18 type boats. Built to fit F18 rule with the exception of the weight. In olympic class races you race it light. For F18 box rule regattas you add weight and race at 180. This could be a win win for both F18 and olympics. The F18 fleets/builders get the advantage of R&D done by the olympic sailors and addition of more olympic sailors racing the F18 regattas. The olympics get a larger pool of talent and more regattas for training.


Jeff Bowers
Mystere 6.0(sometimes XL)
Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: Jeff_Bowers] #211336
05/18/10 10:27 AM
05/18/10 10:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
I'm still very much in favor of the Tiger as the Olympic boat, but it looks like Hobie Cat is positioning the Wildcat as their offering. I very much enjoyed the read, too - Martin is doing a really nice job with that web site. I'm not in favor of the Wildcat as an Olympic boat - that would be bad for the F18 Class.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: John Williams] #211351
05/18/10 02:14 PM
05/18/10 02:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 71
F
F18_VB Offline
journeyman
F18_VB  Offline
journeyman
F

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 71
I'd suggest that the goal of any change should be to increase participation. Outside of Europe, a lot of crews are well above 150 kg. As one of those people, I find it extremely frustrating.

If I were to change the class, it would be to equalize crew weight differences. The goal would be for everyone to have the same combined crew + boat weight and the same righting moment. For example:

The current rules (2.6 m beam, 180 kg):
180 kg boat + 150 kg crew = 330 kg total weight
(180 kg boat * 1.3 m offset) + (150 kg crew * 3 m offset) = 684 m kg

A proposed boat for us big guys (2.5 m beam, 165 kg):
165 kg boat + 165 kg crew = 330 kg total weight
(165 kg boat * 1.25 m offset) + (165 kg crew * 2.9 m offset) = 685 m kg

Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: F18_VB] #211352
05/18/10 02:34 PM
05/18/10 02:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
You just made your used 165 kg boat very very hard to sell. ;-)


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: John Williams] #211354
05/18/10 02:42 PM
05/18/10 02:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
K
ksurfer2 Offline
old hand
ksurfer2  Offline
old hand
K

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
Why is this being discussed? The F-18 is a great class that is experienceing tremendous success within the established box rule. Why mess with it? If you want to argue boat weight, take it to the F-16 forum. They love to do that over there!


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: John Williams] #211362
05/18/10 03:52 PM
05/18/10 03:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 71
F
F18_VB Offline
journeyman
F18_VB  Offline
journeyman
F

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 71
Originally Posted by John Williams
You just made your used 165 kg boat very very hard to sell. ;-)

How so? What's wrong with a 165 kg boat carrying a 15 kg corrector weight so that small people can sail it?

Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: F18_VB] #211365
05/18/10 04:12 PM
05/18/10 04:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
I would expect that only heavy teams would be interested in the light boat, with lighter teams shopping for boats closer to weight. That sort of arrangement would narrow an already small market for used boats, I think. And how excited would builders be to have to deal with special order boat weights?


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: F18_VB] #211367
05/18/10 04:20 PM
05/18/10 04:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
SurfCityRacing Offline
old hand
SurfCityRacing  Offline
old hand

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
Originally Posted by John Williams
You just made your used 165 kg boat very very hard to sell. ;-)


Meh. For a long time to come there will be a market for entry level F18s. If I had a say, I'd be trying to get some younger dudes (that may not have a grip of $$ laying around) on them, otherwise the class will run into the same issues every other cat class is falling victim to...an aging population. Let's face it, new F18s cost a little coin. Used boats give the 20-somethings a chance to join the class.

You have to get a broker's license to broker used boats here in CA though, and a dealer's bond.

Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: John Williams] #211369
05/18/10 04:42 PM
05/18/10 04:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 71
F
F18_VB Offline
journeyman
F18_VB  Offline
journeyman
F

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 71
First, I don't see any need to adopt any sort of class weight change. I'm just frustrated because I'm big boned.

I would have thought the objection to my idea was the different beam lengths not the weight. The only easy way I can come up with to do it is to have two different sized beams (same extrusion profile though) and tiller crossbars. A creative manufacturer might be able to do something telescoping.

I don't see a reason why a 15 kg lighter boat would be any less valuable. It won't be that much less stiff. Also, there will be more people to sell to because more people can be at a competitive weight.

Not being able to sell a used boat is because the number of people participating in our are is not growing. A few new people are starting to show up. But, an equal number of people are no longer showing up. This is why I suggested making a special boat for big dudes that would otherwise be uncompetitive.

Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: SurfCityRacing] #211372
05/18/10 05:28 PM
05/18/10 05:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 71
F
F18_VB Offline
journeyman
F18_VB  Offline
journeyman
F

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 71
Originally Posted by SurfCityRacing
Originally Posted by John Williams
You just made your used 165 kg boat very very hard to sell. ;-)

If I had a say, I'd be trying to get some younger dudes (that may not have a grip of $$ laying around) on them, otherwise the class will run into the same issues every other cat class is falling victim to...an aging population.

I agree with Surf City. I think I am the only one that participates in F18 on the west coast under 35.

Part of the problem is that 99% of our sailors originally sailed other catamaran classes. That doesn't add to the catamaran community or the sailing community. To grow we need to actively promote our class to young people. By that I mean take people who you think would enjoy sailing an F18 out on your boat. Even go as far as using them for crew in a regatta.

If my boat would have cost $20K when I was 22 (they used to be under $15K), I would have bought something else.

Re: F18 from 180kg to 140kg? [Re: John Williams] #211390
05/19/10 02:04 AM
05/19/10 02:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by John Williams
I'm still very much in favor of the Tiger as the Olympic boat, but it looks like Hobie Cat is positioning the Wildcat as their offering. I very much enjoyed the read, too - Martin is doing a really nice job with that web site. I'm not in favor of the Wildcat as an Olympic boat - that would be bad for the F18 Class.


The obsolite Tiger or obsolite Capricorn????? They are both slow now that new models have come out and it would not impact the F18 class at all shocked wink


Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 650 guests, and 104 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Darryl, zorro, CraigJ, PaulEddo2, AUS180
8150 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,404
Posts267,055
Members8,150
Most Online2,167
Dec 19th, 2022
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1