Well, it is more complicated than that I think.

I personally don't mind Macca much. I feel perfectly capable of handling him and I think the F16 class should feel the same. Every good story includes a Judas, right ? Some controversy always results in additional exposure c.q. promotion.

I do feel however that both Macca and the big builders are overlooking a very important aspect of the situation here. That is their own high mindedness. It is simply inconceivable that an 8-year old owners created and driven class will simply roll over and become a builders dominated class. We have proven to not need the big boys in the beginning and as a result we certainly don't need them now. However, this doesn't mean that there isn't room to come together over this. It just means their approach needs to be alot more accomodating towards the F16 class and less self-oriented.

Secondly, it is for them totally unrealistic to make far reaching demands without actually offering anything concrete themselves. Right now, the big ones simply demand we jump through a few hoops (raising the minimum weight unilaterally by what ? 30 kg ?) before they even will CONSIDER joining the class at all.

If that is the way they come to the negociating table then they will find nobody on the other side and are welcomed to continue faltering with their SMOD alternatives. Because lets get one thing perfectly clear the F16 class succeeded where boats like the FX-one, inter 17 , F17, iCat, M18, Javelin, Energy, Evolution, Dynacat, Esse and what not else have failed.

From my perspective, the big builders have interesting opportunities to offer but they also need to understand that the position from which the F16 class negociates is on more then an equal basis. Our position is such that we can make demands too and hold the line when need be.

So, maybe we should turn things around. Maybe the big boat builders need to proof first that they can even build a fully rigged 125 kg 2-up competitive F16 before we the F16 class take their proposals seriously. While we are at it, maybe the big builders (Nacra, Hobie, BCM, Mattia, Marstrom, etc) need to get together first and work out a proposal that guarantees full F16 participation with the discontinuitation of the their (directly) competing products (see models above).

Only at that time will a situation arise where there is ample reason to negociate and look seriously at maybe modifying one or two F16 rules.

Obviously, oneother thing to note is that the F16 class can NEVER modify a given class rule when that favours only one particular design. So as long as the Viper is the only "heavy" F16, they can campaign whatever they want and never achieve their result. That is basic politics. The threat of introducing favoritism and the damage to the image of impartiallity is simply greater then what can be lost by not making the modification. So anybody still favouring such modification better work very hard at getting some other F16 compliant designs out and make a basket of designs that favour the modification. Only when that has been achieved will there be a sufficient political basis to go to the current builders and class members and discuss the merits of modifying the F16 class.

So, in short I'm anxious to see the big boys work out and present a concrete unified proposal to us. If they don't then there is absolutely no reason to take them seriously.

A time for Macca to show what he is really worth.

Wouter

There are ways to make it look better though, like ramming it into a bus...

I would think Hobie and Nacra not interested in building/selling an F16 because it might compete directly against their already popular F18 products and 17 foot products, even though the 17's have not caught on as they might have hoped, but I think that's only because there was no real "F17" box rule where you could have a Nacra F17 racing straight up against a Hobie FX1.

I think if Hobie had come up with something like the Nacra 20, back in 1998, there would have developed a real F20 class as well. But then the F18 class would have not caught on as quickly over here in the US.

Too few customers, too many different classes.

The larger builders may well be satisfied with the status quo: all us misfits are over in the F16 basket and not making trouble for them!

Actually, I would think its time for this class to show us all what its worth:-

The NSR is on this coming weekend, there would have to be a fleet of boats all within 3 hours drive, yet its seems impossible to get you lot off your butts to the event!

Bundy has tried asking nicely and then the discussion degenerated in a waffle about how much the ferry costs and fuel prices, For kiss's sake, you can't create a class on the internet alone! You have to get out there and make it happen. Hypothesizing about the most cost effective way to travel is not getting you there..

So, prove me wrong! Make a class at the NSR and then we will all beg to join your wonderful club.. (oh, I am a member already..)

(Bundy: I am trying the reverse psychology option, maybe that works!)

From a sailor of your calibre, I'd have to say that is an extremely disappointing post. In fact it is barely worthy of a response.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of us don't get paid to go sailing.............

The class is coming along nicely. I was surprised to see how many class members enroll in coaching camps and how seriously they take it. The degree with which they have embraced certification is surprising as well. I, wrongly, assumed it would be a tough sell.

For someone who continually whines and pontificates about the class and its structure, and has been a member for about 4 years, have we ever seen you at a F16 competition or class meeting or for that matter, be seen actually sailing a F16 ?

Yep, Singapore Catamaran Champs, 2009.

Sailed a Viper.

There are photos and witnesses to prove it. Now if I can attend an event in Singapore, how hard is it for you guys to get to NED??

Gosh my humble apologies.

Bet you a beer you didn't register the boat as a F16 but took the higher 104 and I would wager a two beers that you didn't pay for the air ticket and entry fee out of your own pocket.

**** about the pro's not caring about regatta costs. We have all spent many more thousands than we care to add up over the years...

and I have no idea what the rating was, but there was a number of F16's and I suspect they were on the F16 rating.

So, by my count, thats 3 beers you owe me!

So how did you do?

missed the first day because of a scheduling issue, but I think we won all the races on the second day (James won the race to the start area an his A cat though)

Anyhow, back to the topic: how about a fleet for the NSR?

<**** about the pro's not caring about regatta costs. We have all spent many more thousands than we care to add up over the years...

and I have no idea what the rating was, but there was a number of F16's and I suspect they were on the F16 rating.

So, by my count, thats 3 beers you owe me!

Results are here!!! http://www.csc.org.sg/documents/result/feb09/NatCat09.xls

And Macca did race off 102.

Now if I sailed my moth instead of the A, well Macca would have been toast! Wouldn't have stood a chance, haha. But I digress, but that is standard behaviour for internet forums...

<**** about the pro's not caring about regatta costs. We have all spent many more thousands than we care to add up over the years...

and I have no idea what the rating was, but there was a number of F16's and I suspect they were on the F16 rating.

So, by my count, thats 3 beers you owe me!

Hey Andrew,

Come to us! I'm the fleet captain for the cats at Datchet (that's near London, UK) and I've been looking for someone to do some coaching for our cat spi fleet (F16 and FX-one mostly, with some oddballs like a Shadow, an Inter 20 or a H5.9). The idea would be over a week-end, with one day on boat handling and the other on race training.

I'm sure you can teach us a lot, and that would give you the occasion to meet most of the active F16 UK fleet as I'm sure Mark, Paul and John(s) and even Simon would probably make the trip to participate.

Not to mention that Wayne would be able to buy you his 3 beers: we have two bars in the club house, both with beer on tap

Drop me an email if interested, we'll discuss. I'm can be reached at catfleet@dwsc.co.uk

Actually I think it maybe less than 3 beers, I think the "missed the first day because of a scheduling issue" may perhaps indicate the trip to Singapore was not specifically to race F16's.

Still 3 beers Wayne... I was in Thailand for another event and it overlapped dates, but i flew straight to Singapore after and went straight from the airport to the club and was sailing within 1.5 hours of landing..

As for a coaching clinic: I would be more than happy to, but maybe its better for Bundy to come he can sell you some heavy F16 thingy..

If not, I will check the schedule and see whats posssible, maybe later in the season is ok for me.

Only too happy to buy the beers.

If ever there was a club in the UK to sell a few Vipers into, it would be Datchet but I think he would need to leave a Viper behind for a month or two just for us to make sure its OK of course.