Pete you are correct sir that post was out of line and I also apolgized for my comments publicly in the same thread, which I have quoted below.

I've also sent you my cell number and asked you to call if you have issues with me. I look forward to speaking with you. If anyone else would like to talk to me directly please let me know.

Apology accepted. I'll see you at Kelly Park, it should be a good weekend.

The volunteer corp at GYC is grossly overworked. We're going to have to do fewer and smaller events.

My apologies as well.

The only problem with the F16 is that it will cost about $40,000 when people start building it to the rule. As soon as you start to hit critical mass that will happen and all existing boats will be obsolete. So in that regard I’d say the F18 is a good alternative.

The boats are all built to the rule. We hit critical mass some time ago and the last time I checked the price was around $16k.

Inside the rule is not the same as to the rule.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFzZ9D4WAD8&feature=related

Hell it's your class so you guys do what you want. You asked the question and I've taken the time to give you my answer.
Best of luck to you and the class.

Thank you.

A bit less. I've been exploring it, and it'd be about $35k to get a Viper-like design, (big volume+stiff), to weight. Cheaper if you can order more than one.

But there is always the possibility of it reaching that $40k number. Gotta pay to play.

Stop propelling BS about the F16's guys.

The fact that Greg has CHOSEN to build the Viper INSIDE the F16 class rules and not ON the F16 class rules has nothing to do with whether this is possible of not for a price tag of sub 20.000 bucks.

19.800 USD will get you a minimum weight carbon masted fully race rigged (Pentex, carbon boards etc) 2-up Falcon F16 in the USA.

Source : http://www.falconmarinellc.com/falcon_pricing_2009.pdf

All the rest is just ignorance.

That is all I wanted to say and I'll step out of the discussion now. (Pete, what are you exactly doing here ?)

Wouter

Ignorance is beleiving current F16s are built anywhere near to the rule.

A full carbon, prepreg autoclave full volume stiff F16 will cost significantly more than an A Class and would be superiour to all current F16s in the market.

Seems everybody and anybody in the sailing industry (other than F16 sailors) know this.

Cation, if you want to bring the fight here, you may have more than just F16 sailors posting comments about this.

Stephen,

We are NOT going to have that discussion here on the F18 forum.

Period.

Wouter

Of course in the F16 Forum the arguement would be a little bias. Care to take it to the open forum or even SA?

Since it seems you know quite a bit about all of the F16's being built right now...

In what aspects(all aspects) are NONE of the F16's being built, NOT to the F16 rules?

BTW, I'm not picking on you, you just happened to make this statement and I was curious as to what you see. (Notice the smiley face)

Mike

Viper could be lighter. Carbon mast to reduce weight aloft, carbon hulls and beams also to reduce weight.

Other F16s could also go down all carbon route, (alloy and glass are second grade substitutes). Bigger carbon beams, reinforced beam mounts both to create a stiffer again platform, more hull volume.

Personally beleive AHPC have nailed the specs and pricing on the Viper as a stand alone class. As an F16, it looks to be the quickest product out there whilst carrying too many KGs for the class. A lighter verson of the same product would off course be quicker..... But likely priced out of the market place.

You forgot to mention why the Viper is basically over weight, its not the mast nor the hulls which is the real concern. AHPC choose for commercial economy ( cost to the bottom line on the balance sheet )to use the beams rudders and all ancillaries from its bigger sister the F18 and by design choice, to have larger bouyancy ( big hulls )than the other F16's.

If dedicated F16 suitable components had been used then it would be similar in weight to most of the earlier generation designs ie around 115 - 120 kilos.

The Viper is an interesting boat and must be being looked at by many of the lighter F18 crews, it already seems on a par performace wise with the F18's, has a better handicap and best of all, can be beach handled with ease by two crew.

So, it still comes down to weight?

Wasn't the Taipan down to min weight? If that's the case and the Taipan was so good, why didn't everyone build something just like the Taipan? For that matter, use all of the parts off of the Taipan like the beams and stuff, and then just make the Hulls with more volume? Why didn't that happen? Isn't the Taipan still being produced? So the beams should still be readily available, correct? So, other than the cost savings of using the F18 beams and parts, just use most of the parts of the Taipan. I would think AHPC would have thought of that.

Why didn't they do that then?


I'm not bashing the Taipan BTW or AHPC...

Just trying to have a good conversation...

Mike

I have to say that the Viper can be handled by one person on the beach. Yes, if the sand is a little soft, or there is a nice little hill that I have to go up, It's a little hard to push it by myself. But most of the time, I have no problems handling the boat by myself. I weigh about ~170lbs or ~80kgs for you metric folks.

Mike

Mike,

I'm not knocking the weight of the Viper at all, just saying that with better design and dedicated parts it could be on a par weight wise with many of the existing F16's.

Either by design or by commercial risk aversion ( using existing parts to limit development costs and thats exactly the right route to go in my opinion ) the Viper has fallen into a real sweet spot for its handicap, good and hope all the new owners will enjoy what is obviously a cool boat.

My guess is that should a new Nacra or Hobie suddenly appear thats 16ft long and down around the 120 kilos then AHPC would immediately issue upgraded components to lower the weight. Nothing wrong in that in my opinion just a MK2 version.

don't worry, I'm just making conversation.

Trying to see what everyone's thoughts are.

This comment is not so much ignorance as it seems paranoia.
From a current builder, put a carbon stick on a Falcon and it is min weight. I would figure that makes it at the rule and far under 40K. (Around 20 I have been quoted) I am sure if you brought a 40K check to any builder they would be more than happy to build you something though.

Carbon is not legal in the F18, but it is possible to build a full pregpreg autoclaved F18 which would also be much more expensive and stiffer than the current boats. Why would you not fear this? And how from actual experience can you possibly project that any addition of carbon or expensive production technology will obsolete any boat.

Marstrom builds an all carbon autoclaved boat. They are expensive but has it “taken over” the class – NO. The new Ashby boat (as well as the Flyer II) do not even have carbon hulls, they are Kevlar. Has this made the boats uncompetitive – NO. Is there any huge difference in costs between the brands made with carbon or not – not so you would notice.

A landed Ashby A in the US is right around 30K. You can buy a full carbon – under min weight - Falcon for quite a bit less (~5K)than that, and you have a lot more kit on the F16.


Sorry to get drug into this thread but untruths and exaggerations that espouse doom and gloom or bash each other do not do either of our classes or cat sailing in general any good.

Pete, WTF were you thinking with this post on the F18 site?

Well, we had some F18 sailors of note coming over to the F16 forum, giving vent to their views, I figured turn about was fair play.

But, the point has been made. Time to go home.