Thanks Gill!

Correct There is no F class for 20 footers. Nacra calling their new 20 footer F20 is just marketing... there is no buy in from other builders to the box rule that just fits their boat. It's also not clear that at 20 feet... a box rule is even needed since physics limits what you can do. Racing the M20, and F20, boat for boat will probably depend on the crew and execution... not the design box.



The M20 was designed to replace the Tornado for Olympic competition.... the idea was that on a WL course the sail configuration put a premium on Sailor Skill and that's what the Olympic competition was about... I was supposed to be a technically challenging boat to race. Since then... the actual buyers have modified and modified the rig to make the boat a distance racing machine (since there is no buoys circuit or a racing class for the M20's or the 20 footers in general). It is not one design by any stretch.



I completely disagree with this conclusion. The nacra 20 owners screwed themselves. The notion that the nacra 20 owners could do it all ... Week long ocean distance races AND a viable buoys racing circuit proved to not be the answer to forming and growing a one design class. No visible leadership apart from the factory running a NA's for 10 plus years will do that. With just barely enough critical mass for both pursuits the top sailors slowly exited the loosely organized owners group and joined the slowly growing F18 class. Notice, you have no doubt what the F18 class priorities are ...

The factory builds boats and organizes one week long event a year. When the numbers of boat sales and racers attending the NA's falls below some threshold... The factory class is all but dead.... Nacra moves on....


Your conclusion doesn't hold up. .... Melges built and promoted the Melges 20 in the last three years... It's a sport boat that is at least 40 to 50K. They already have more boats racing on a published schedule then any 20 foot catamaran in the world. The Viper 640 retooled with a new mast and a national race circuit and it's the sport boat class to be in the USA.

Owners buy into a PROGRAM... That would be boat plus race circuit. That's the take home of looking at the F18 in the USA... The boat is not fun under 10 knots (which is the vast majority of east coast sailing) yet the race program gets racers to buy in and go racing... (who cares if everyone on the water is going slow).



I conclude that the remains of the nacra 20 class and beginnings of the F16 class are finding common ground at the level of recreational club racing. The 20 guys will down size or not when the crew issues get to the level of PIA. The challenge is to make a recreational club racing program as viable as possible... What that means is the big question for F16's (as well as the N20's).

IIMO, In the USA... the Nacra F20 sales will depend on how many owners want a boat to go distance racing and the viability of the distance races themselves. Several events have died (C100) or barely survived (Hogsbreath and it's successors)moreover, other events are looking at leadership succession in the next few years (Tybee and Steeplechase).

IMO, the N20's should see the writing on the wall and organize all of the 20's.. Tornado's, Supercats, Nacra's Marstorms and the new F20 on a distance circuit under a very loose formula rule/ measurement handicap rule. In order to keep everyone in the game for as long as possible, limit the number of new sails per year to be measured in.

IMO, The F16's should think about racing the single handers against the remains of the Nacra 17 fleet.... the competition is as much about managing the boat around the race course as strait line speed. The fantasy that the one up and two up F16's are fairly competing gets more extreme after each event. My hunch... after you look at the racing for single handers and double handers as separate issues the rules debate gets much easier.

Just my OPINION so don't shoot me!

HA!

You are correct that owner's do buy into a program, but(maybe it's the part of country I'm in or something) it seems that mulithull sailors in general don't want to spend as much as the other sailors. It least from what I can see!

You have a point on the singlehanded F17's and F16's, but quite honest, I believe we have tried that in the past. I'm thinking what we might want to do is some type of a race somewhere that's singlehanders only. Kind of what they do in Europe with the "One Up Cup". That would also include A-cats also. I know, you guys probably wouldn't come, cause you guys like to play in your own sandbox sometimes, but at least we would invite you! . Notice, I'm smiling, being funny, not serious!

I won't shoot you! ....





Mike

Whoa!!!! This thread just took a port tack. Start a new one if you must.

That's what we are good at!

I'm done anyway....

Ready for the Friday afternooner.

Nacra and Hobie probably can compete in the F16 Class; however, they would disenfranchise their existing SMOD classes that are "closely" similar, FX-1 & F17. It is only recently that the F16 class has gained any real momentum and it would have been schizophrenic if they jumped in before now. Frankly, I hear very little hype about the FX-1 & F17 anymore and expect that it is an indication of some F16 surprises in the near future.

Whatever the case, it seems as though formula beachcat racing has a strong appeal for the owner and it is here to stay. Ben Franklin promoted "Join, or Die". It may be applicable.

I like that...ole Ben Franklin....

Kris

Take a look at the US scene.... the FX-1 never took off as a racing class... The Hobie 17 sailors took a look and said... no thanks.... A racing core never materialized....

The Nacra F17 basically died a year ago... They have one boat at NA's this year... just to the left of Michigan were they started! Hell... Two or three years ago... they were running a gold cup championship series with 17 racers. Bob Curry was spearheading the class.

In the USA... there are no fleets to support or kill.

The EU scene is different... The F104 class in France and it's relationship to F16's two up is one of Macca's points. ...

The one up scene looks (from here) to be mostly a local club scene. That's a good question for the EU guys... What is the level of participation for one up spin sailors in the EU. I wonder how much of a market there is for a single handed spin cat racing program.

Bobcat, it was a borrowed boat from a CRAW member. His sails and some modifications to the rigging.

For every club sailor, how many of those travel to events other than their own puddle, without a proper survey I guess I could use the F16 park at Datchet with 11 boats, only 1 has travelled to an outside event this year and i would guess that is about the norm.

In my view this is exactly where the manufacturers get it wrong, which market should they sell to, the clubman who often doesn't race or the clubman who races regulalry. At 11 : 1 it is a marketing no brainer but unless they can get the publicity from winning races then the clubman won't buy the product as they need to aspire to own the latest all singing and dancing toy.

As to EU preference to one or two crew, probably a very high number are sailed solo with an occasional crew for comps, sort of the other way around to the States.

There were lots of rumors at Racine that NACRA will be building an F16. I didn't hear it from anyone that had genuine, first hand knowledge though, so chances are its the deep fried mouse story where it always happened to somebody else.

I hope they do, another boat on the market can't hurt anything in my opinion, hopefully its an improvement over what is currently available and it keeps pushing the ball forward.

I don't know why somebody didn't ask Jack (?) from Nacra about this. He was there all week.

That'd be waaaaayyy too simple....

a little bird told me that the same design team who did the Nacra F20C is working on a F16...the word is that it will be as spectacular as the F20C

Perhaps my musings that a mixed crew F16 boat being the only way we get multihulls back into the Olympics and the agreement by some of the Sailing press, is perhaps sharpening the minds of the marketing boys and girls at the major manufacturers.

Great!

That just means it will NOT be F16 compliant, but trying to create their own class that's called F something....


Good marketing!

Mike

I know...

But the truth hurts and I'm not stirring up poop.

I'll believe it when I see one!

Mike

Pete how do you constantly mis-interpret everything we all seem to say, where I come from its called not doing your homework properly and jumping to the wrong conclusions.

Pete,

You do not have much room to gripe on anyone else’s posts relative to being a friendly representative of the class.

With the 104 seeming to die on the vine, I would think Nacra would be interested in the potential market share the F16 class seems to be tapping. They do have a very long history of F’n up classes though you have to admit (Pun intended)

There is room to do some cool things within the framework of the rules, so it will be interesting how they choose to use that potential. Maybe we will see that 30K class killer Macca keeps droning about. Maybe they will pull a Viper move and build something away from the box edges and then lobby the class to change the rules.

Some added marketing power can be a very good thing for the class. Let’s hope the resulting product is a representative of that and not an ego swing to create yet another new thing.

I know. But I thought we had turned the corner on that. Things have been amiable for awhile now. I began this thread in direct retaliation for unwarranted attacks on the F16 Class. Those attacks have stopped, so should this thread.