Two cats, a Prindle 19 solo without spi (yellow) and a F16 solo with a spi (me, blue).

I'm under spi for the whole scenario. The wind is fairly light.

We round a mark and we have a reach to the next one (position 4 and 5 has us pointed directly at the next mark). I'm faster and I'm catching up so I go up a little to go over him. Right as I start passing him he suddenly goes up while at the same time screaming "up up up". At this point I'm overlapped so I can't duck away anymore, I'm forced to go up and my spi starts flapping (position 7).

He changes course again to the mark, I follow and as soon at my spi catches some air again I'm overlapped, but this time a little further away. He tries the same maneuver but I can go high enough to pass his bows and go ahead of him. I then power up and disappear.

Do I have ground to protest? There was no contact, but at times less than an inch between us. With the wind any higher I would have probably capsized with the spi up going upwind. Due the the size of the sails on the Prindle it would have taken me forever to go under him hence my choice to go over.

Small world. I had a similar situation with a P19 last weekend. Rules didn't come into question but it took forever. At first I tried going through his lee, big mistake, needn't have bothered. Imo, the only way is over the top.

As to the rules, who knows? My guess is it would be your word against his if it went to the room. I think he had the right to luff but only before the overlap.

Slight hijack I suppose, but P19 is a very nice boat. Why aren't there more of them?

I can see no ground for you to protest. If anything, he may have grounds to protest you if he feels you did not keep clear (which, if your boats were less then 1 inch apart as you say, then you most likely were not keeping clear).

11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

You need to anticipate that he may try to luff you. And consider that since he isn't running a chute, his luff can be a lot quicker and higher than yours.

15 ACQUIRING RIGHT OF WAY
When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of the other boat’s actions.

Passing to windward can be risky.

sm

This has happened to me more times than I can count, and is a classic example of where using rules are not to anyone’s advantage tactically. Leeward boat has the rights to come up but they have the limits on providing time for the windward to maneuver and eventually some on proper course, but you do not want to have that be your only defense in a protest IMO.

Boats that pull this kind of tactic on the course are a danger, especially sloop vs spin. If they really want to protect their line they need to come up early letting you know that they will be doing so and you need choose another way around. This way nobody runs off the wrong way and lets the 4 boats behind you all in front of both of you. If the boat behind is overtaking rapidly, they should have just kept their best line and let them buy as they would only be in dirty air for a very short time and give up a lot less time than trying to round somebody up violently at the last minute.

You as uni are significantly limited boat handling wise, so being forced to reach is scary in any wind. In passing, you either want to go real high early so you can get by as you eventually did, or go low early. With the spin and a hull speed advantage, ducking will lose you very little ground. We had to do this several times to the P19 last weekend and there were a ton of H16s always in the way. Go low far enough that as soon as you hit their exhaust you can round up and maintain apparent and you can pop through a slower boat pretty quick.

-He has overlap so he has luffing rights (R11).

-If he luffed too hard he would be in breach of R16.1 (when RoW boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear).

-If he started luffing just after the overlap had been established he also would have had to keep clear (R15).

-Had you capsized you could have maybe protested for R2 (fair sailing), but not easy to prove.

If you filed the protest I think R11+R16.1 would have the best chance of success (especially since he went from a downwind to an upwind course).

I highly recommend taking a look at the ISAF Case Book, it describes all sorts of situations and explains the reasoning behind it:
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/CaseBook20092012with2010changes-%5B8229%5D.pdf

I agree that tactically, this type of maneuver (sharp luff by the leeward boat) almost never makes sense for the reasons stated above. Unless you're in a situation where you have to stay ahead of that particular boat, you usually just end up both losing ground.

However, the leeward boat is not limited to sailing her proper course in this situation. The windward boat must keep clear and should anticipate that the leeward boat may try to defend her position by luffing. This is a basic windward overtaking leeward situation.

sm

SRM is correct on his explanation. As an windward overtaking boat, you have to assume that the leeward boat is going to defend his position by luffing you up - it is clearly within his rights as long as he gives you room and opportunity to avoid contact. It happens quite often in both mono and multi fleets.

Your best defense as an overtaking boat is to set up for the pass in advance and try to climb over the leeward boat with 2+ boatlengths of separation. This way the leeward boat will usually not act as aggressively as you overtake, and it will give you room to head down after you've broken the overlap.

That's what I thought, I don't think I have a case. as the RoW and leeward boat he is entitled to luff me as hard as he wants. He also gave me enough room to keep clear (barely enough room, but enough).

So, it's really a case of poor tactics? In my case I turned dead down wind to set the spin, there was light air and I probably could have completed the set much higher and not had to work so hard to get above the 19.

Matt I don't know how you broke through his lee. I couldn't do it.

Pepin,

No case for a protest; also; he only has to give you ROOM to keep clear; “Room and opportunity” was binned in the last iteration of the rules; it’s just ROOM to keep clear.

It could get interesting if he pushed you high enough to threaten a capsize; at that point I would call the following “If you want to take me higher; you will need to give me ROOM to take my Spi down”; if the helm of the other boat is at all switched on they will realise that the game is up.

Also, as stated; if you can get +2 boat lengths to windward; they cannot attack in the same way (cannot find the rules at the moment). Simple thing is to establish your passing lane and stay in it.

What rule says a leeward boat has to give a windward boat with the spin up room to take it down?

I guess you are entitled to ask from room to capsize without your mast hitting the leeward boat :P

I don't see 16.1 giving a capsizing boat a pass there is nothing that says an overtaking boat must keep clear by a defined distance. IMO, if that situation goes to the room the windward boat would get tossed for failing to keep clear. It's not difficult to figure out that passing a sloop with a spin is filled with risk especially as the breeze comes up. If you choose to roll the dice (regardless of what you think of the tactics) it's on the windward boat and they have chosen their fate.

been there before too....I usually ask the leeward skipper to "please hold still, this will only hurt for a second"...with a smile (and knowing that I don't have right of way should they decide to fight me).

Dave, in the specific instance under discsussion I respectfully disagree (See - a Subordinate can be respectful to his President).

The Leeward boat luffed up in this case - changing course.


Now, if the spin boat was overtaking, cut it close, got a puff, flipped and their mast hit the leeward boat then that would be a different matter. Rules 11 and 15 apply in that situation.

In the case of a spin boat overtaking, the leeward non-spin boat acquired right of way because of the other boats action and is not required to give room - unless they alter course - e.g. luffing up
(I think)

Chris.

Yes, and that's why we have a protest room. Even then it can go either way depending on who is interpreting the rules. Which is also why you can file an appeal.

I still don't think a ROW boat is obligated to give room to a boat that is being sailed badly and I consider a capsize sailing badly. The windward boat knew going in that they could get luffed up.

So, are you saying that I can pass "any" leeward boat with my spin and as soon as they start taking me up I simply say... easy there buddy you come up any further and I'm going to capsize on top of you and you'll get tossed? Still don't see it coming out that way in the room.

The P19 can't luff at all.

"17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull
lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above
her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped
within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails
astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap
begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear."

"If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack"

Are you now saying you obtained overlap to leeward of the P19? Which would mean the P19 would be to windward and if they luffed up it would not have affected you because you were to leeward.

Pete that rule basically says if you obtain overlap to leeward you do not not have luffing rights and must maintain proper course, and based on your post and Pepin's post this is not what happened, so this rule does not apply.

You are also aware you fouled us LARGE at the start of race 1 on Saturday, right?

Read R17 again Pete.

Pepin: what was the course to the next mark?

That applies only to the overtaking boat - the F16 with spinnaker in this case. It means that you can't sail from behind and under someone and then take them up. It doesn't say that the ROW boat who is being overtaken from windward can't alter course to defend.

I'm with Dave on this one, you need to plan way ahead if you are the spinnaker boat and be prepared to drop the kite quickly if the leeward boat starts to engage his rights and you haven't been able to get enough height to negate his advantage. I agree that it's a risky and not terribly beneficial maneuver on part of the non-spin boat...but it's within his rights.