Those club races are fun. Nobody protests, but a lot of situations arise from the close racing on vastly different boats. After Tuesday race rule question, here is the Thursday race one (yup racing is every evening this week. I'm tired!)

On the starting line, before the gun, three boats side by side on starboard. On leeward, a Flying Fifteen (keel boat), then a little further back but with an overlap me on a F16, and then a Wayfarer (slow boat) which is really close to the line.

We got onto this position slowly, but I believe the wayfarer was parked first, the FF came in later and I sneaked the nose of my boat through he hole between the two in the last minute before the start.

We are all very close to each other and 30 seconds before the start the FF starts to luff me to make himself a hole. I do go up shouting to the Wayfarer to follow suit. The Wayfarer complies and do end up crossing the line early and stopped nose to wind.

The Wayfarer was stuck there, with nowhere to go, it was head to wind, had no drive anymore and could not tack anyway due to the number of boats coming on its starboard side. From my point of view an obstruction.

The gun goes and the FF still pinch me. I shout at him that I need room but as he bear away to power off the back end of his boat swings even closer to me. In order to avoid it I went up and banged hull (without damage) with the wayfarer. It was the wayfarer or the FF really, I was running out of space at that point.

No protest were filed, but my understanding is that the FF should be penalized for failure to give room to keep clear. He had plenty of room below him to bear away but choose to luff us up to the point we couldn't do anything but bang hulls. I should be penalized for contact, but exonerated as I was compelled to do it by the FF breach of the rules. Is my analysis correct? The FF was trying to argue at the bar that I "barged into the line" and that is was all the fault of the catamaran sailors, those young hooligans who don't sail proper boats. I don't agree with the wording "barging", as I came in slow, but I don't think anyway that there is any rule preventing me to go between two boats parked on the start line. He didn't defend my entry into that hole when I approached.

If the Wayfarer was over the line at the start then he should return and re-start without interfering with any other boat racing. This didn't happen. However, because a collision occurred perhaps you should have done a 360 turn and then after the race protested for redress. As I see it the Flying Fifteen didn't do anything wrong, making an accusation after the race about you barging in is just nonsense.
I'm more than willing to be corrected

Pepin, a quick question for you. Picture this:
Two A'Classes flying in towards the windward mark both on Port. The windard A has a slight overlap so the leeward A' gives just enough mark room (no problems so far). However, there's a Dart 18 also on Port which was clear ahead at the 3 boat circle. The Leeward A' can scoot around the leeward side of the Dart quite happily but the windward A looks to be going right up their transom at quite a speed.
Does the Leeward A' have to give the windward A' extra room to round both the Mark and Dart ? Or should the windward A' looked ahead and decided to slow down and follow what was the leeward A' around the Dart and Mark?

The Wayfarer came back and restarted properly. According to the race officer neither I nor the FF were over the line.

I was not going to do a 360 as I considered I had done nothing wrong despite the impact. Especially since there is never any call for redress or protests on those mixed series. I don't want to start a trend.

When the Wayfarer re started properly did they do a 720 turn? It sounds like they interfered with your race if you had contact. The OCS was the first rule to be broken maybe the contact rule doesn't come in to play as you had right of way and there was no personal or physical damage! but that could prove quite difficult to argue. I see your point about redress.

There are no grounds for redress. You need to review the four instances for which redress is possible - this is not one of them, since there was no injury or damage.

Also, a boat that is OCS retains all their rights until they start sailing back towards the line (Rule 21.1)

The Wayfarer, as windward boat is obligated to keep clear of both the F16 and the FF (Rule 11). The F16 must initially give the Wayfarer room to keep clear (Rule 15). The FF must give the F16 room to keep clear when they change course (luff)(Rule 16.1).

The FF broke Rule 16.1
You broke Rule 14 (contact), but would be exonerated pursuant to Rule 14(b).
The Wayfarer broke Rule 11, but could make an argument that they were not given room to keep clear (Rule 16.1) as they were head to wind and wayless.

BTW, a boat racing is is not an obstruction to other boats unless they are required to keep clear of her or, if rule 22 applies, avoid her.

Pepin,

Again, you present a reasonable argument, but one that can be difficult to win in a protest hearing. I think you'd have a better chance now, than under the previous rules when the Flying Fifteen would have been considered a continuing obstruction.

Now however, she is not:

Let's analyze the situation step-by-step.

1. Three boats, the Flying Fifteen (L), the F16 (M), and the Wayfarer (W) are approaching the line to start, all on starboard tack. Initially, W is clear ahead of L and M, and is parked just below the starting line at the signal boat. At this point, L and W are required by RRS 12 "ON THE SAME TACK, NOT OVERLAPPED" to keep clear of her. W is also clear astern of L and is required to keep clear of her too.
2. L establishes an overlap to leeward of W from clear astern, I presume within two of her boatlengths. Just how far apart they are is not specified. W must now keep clear of L under RRS 11 "ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED". L must initially give W room to keep clear under RRS 15 "ACQUIRING RIGHT OF WAY". M must still keep clear of both W and L.
3. M sails in between L and W. Now all three boats are overlapped with each other (see the definition of overlap). W must keep clear of L and M (rule 11). M must keep clear of L (rule 11). M must initially give W room to keep clear (rule 15). RRS 15 does not apply between L and M, so L is not initially obligated to give M room to keep clear. How close the boats are at this point is vitally important, and will probably determine the outcome of a protest hearing.
4. 30 seconds before the starting signal, L heads up. M also heads up, and so does W (to head-to-wind). W crosses the starting line and stops. L must give M room to keep clear under RRS 16.1 "CHANGING COURSE". M must give W room to keep clear also.
5. After the starting signal, M hails for room. L bears away. L's transom swings towards M. M steers away and makes contact with W. The is no damage.

At position 5, W did not keep clear of M. It is arguable whether or not M kept clear of L. It seems apparent that M did not have room to keep clear of L.

The crux of the matter is "why" didn't M have room to keep clear? Remember that rules 16 and 64.1(c) are "shields, not swords". A protest committee will generally look at which boat (L or M) was being the aggressor. If there was plenty of space between L and W when M sailed in, and L forced M up into W, then L breaks rule 16, and M should be exonerated under rule 64.1(c). If, on the other hand, there was little separation between L and W, and M nosed her way into a space where she really didn't have enough room, then she breaks rule 11 and is not entitled to exoneration.

In order to receive exoneration, the boat must have been "compelled" to break a rule, and the other boat's action must have been against the rules. Rule 64.1(c) exonerates a boat that is forced to break a rule, but it doesn't protect one that sails into an untenable position.

There are some points in the story that make me suspect that the boats were too close. For example, When L turned down, and her transom swung over, how could M keep clear by heading up? Wouldn't that cause M's transom to swing towards L, making matters worse? Or was she only overlapped bow-to-stern? Also, when M made contact with W, W was head-to-wind, but M was not. How is that possible unless M and W were barely overlapped as well? I have difficulty reconciling that small an overlap on both sides, with having a large hole to sail into.

As I said, the argument is valid, but tough to sell. I think most protest committees would penalize M. W would probably be exonerated, but would still have to restart.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Since the Dart was clear ahead at the zone, both A's are required to give her mark room. See rule 18.2(b). This makes the Dart an obstruction to both of them. See the definition of Obstruction. If the leeward A chooses to sail below the Dart, she must give the windward A room to sail below her also. See rule 19.2(b).

I hope that helps,
Eric

Thanks Eric. Great stuff as usual.

BTW.. these threads are great for non racers to learn some rules. might even enspire some to race more

I'm a racer, and I get confused......

Maybe I shouldn't race anymore.

Here are some instructive references:








Regards,
Eric

Some clarifications:


Questionable. I don't think L was further away than 2 boat lengths from W initially, but barely. The hole between the two was big. When I "barged in" the hole was big enough for me, with room to head up without impairing upon W and the same amount below separating me from L. You could fit a laser on each side, with room to spare.

The line also had a strong bias, left was definitely favored, aka being head to wind you were at an angle with the line, so much so that a 49er was able to port tack the whole fleet (and not capsize doing so for once



I was further back, W and L were both in front of me. I had an overlap on both, only bow to stern on W but almost side by side with L. Before L started to luff me I was trying hard to stop the boat from creeping forward as I felt I was too close to the line. When L started to luff me it also picked up speed and moved forward more but not enough for me to bear away and duck behind it, my spi pole would have hit for sure and my starboard hull as well probably. When L bore away its stern passed in front of my port bow and under my spi pole but was still a good meter away from W. When I headed up and hit W sideways, my starboard bow was at the level of his shrouds.

Right after the touch I was able to bear away behind the FF transom.

Maybe of importance, and that I learned only after, L and W were both fighting for the series first place, pushing W over the line was of outmost importance for L and allowed him to win the series by one point...

But I agree, I have a knack to put myself in impossible situations, maybe I should be penalized for it.

I do agree with these neat little rules thought experiments...

Maybe the webmaster can set up a "THE ROOM" and move topics like this in there so folks who want a better grasp of how the RRS play out can go in there and have fun. Maybe even figure out a way to graphically illustrate the situations?

Even better? Pick out a random (and sometimes obscure) scenario, describe it (graphically and written) along with the solution and rules applied (like Eric does) and put it in Catsailor MAG....

NO MORE ROOMS! The thread is fine here. Finally a thread I can read and not think WTF? I quit racing several years ago because I couldn't figure out the rules (its like reading a judges brief!) and the guys that knew more than me would snuff me out. Not fun sailing for me and my then 12 year old son.

These threads are GREAT! Thank you,

Clayton

yes, but I would rather have them all in one place rather than havign to dig through some nefarious threads to find them...

For a while, I was toying with the idea of writing a book showing how to analyze a scenerio and apply the rules (not like there aren't enough out there already - written by people much more knowledgable than I). I was going to call it "Judge For Yourself". Then I thought a tactics book would be a much better seller. I'm not a tactics expert, but I believe I had the right title: "How To Use The Rules To Your Advantage".

In fleet racing, however, it's almost always faster just to stay away from the other boats.

Regards,
Eric

Nice thread

If there weren't so many nefarious threads,it wouldn't be so hard.

NO more rooms! I never visit the other ones anyway!

I got confused at #1.

I can't follow all these rule "scenarios".

L goes below W and M gets the shaft unless W yells to L about how he's astern but not clear asterm of M. Meanwhile M goes and does a 360 because he couldn't follow the flowchart in his head about what the hell he was supposed to do.

GAH!