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Mono or Multi for next America's Cup? #215320
07/05/10 07:21 PM
07/05/10 07:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,047
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline OP
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Timbo  Offline OP
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From today's Scuttlebutt:

CONTINUING THE PROCESS
Rating rule authorities in America and Britain have been commissioned to
draft the rules for the next generation of America’s Cup yacht. In asking US
SAILING and the Royal Ocean Racing Club’s Seahorse Rating affiliate to write
the rules, BMW ORACLE Racing and Golden Gate Yacht Club, winner of the 33rd
America’s Cup last February, has ensured the process is neutral and
independent.

“We’ve always said that the new design will be for the America’s Cup
community. The result with be a ‘non-partisan yacht’ rather than a
‘defender’s yacht’,” said Ian Burns, Design Coordinator for BMW ORACLE
Racing. “A great deal of input was sought from the America’s Cup community
and the concept briefs given to the rule writers reflect that feedback.”

In a twin-track process, US SAILING will author a multihull rule and the
RORC’s Seahorse Rating a canting-keel monohull rule. “It would be premature
to rule either a monohull or multihull in and the other out at this stage,”
commented Russell Coutts, CEO of BMW ORACLE Racing. “Which type of boat is
best for racing and media impact is one of many evaluations we will be
testing over the coming months.”

The choice between monohull and multihull will be made after the conclusion
of these trials, the first round of which is scheduled for Valencia in late
July. “Either option will provide high performance, exciting viewing and
challenges to design, build and sailing teams,” commented Burns. Versatile
performance in light and strong winds is considered essential to minimize
delayed or postponed racing.

In response to feedback from potential teams, the original concepts for both
types have been scaled back from 26m (82 feet) LOA to 22m (72 feet) for
tangible cost reduction. An engine will be used to cant the keel on the
monohull and move appendages on the multihull. The rule authors have been
tasked to specify an environmentally friendly, smart, low-emission engine or
power-pack. “This offers a great opportunity for the America’s Cup community
to take a leading role in this increasingly applied technology,” said Burns.
“But there will be no power- assistance for crews to trim or hoist sails.
Both the monohull and multihull will be very athletic boats to race hard.”

To ensure fairness, all teams will simultaneously receive updates and
information from the authors with regards to progress. The briefs to the
rule authors outline parameters for both types of boat to give base-line
dimensions. This ‘box rule’ method should ensure boats designed by different
teams are similar in style to guarantee the close racing the America’s Cup
thrives on. Otherwise, the instructions to the rule writers are deliberately
open to afford them full creative freedom. -- Read on:
http://tinyurl.com/39gfaw7


Blade F16
#777
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Mono or Multi for next America's Cup? [Re: Timbo] #215362
07/06/10 11:53 AM
07/06/10 11:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,047
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline OP
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Timbo  Offline OP
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Soo...nobody's got an opinion on weather it should be a Mono or a Multi?

I think the slower mono's actually offer better -match racing- if only because they are so slow the leader can't get very far away, very quickly, so the boat behind has a shot at getting a good shift and getting back into the race.

As we saw in this last match, when you have boats that can go 30 knots in only 8kt. of wind, well...not much chance to -catch up- once the leader escapes. Great to watch those two huge multis going fast, but as far as "Match Racing" ? Well, for me it seemed less than thrilling.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Mono or Multi for next America's Cup? [Re: Timbo] #215363
07/06/10 11:58 AM
07/06/10 11:58 AM

A
andrewscott
Unregistered
andrewscott
Unregistered
A



only because the 2 boats weren't well matched in design.
i say multis all the way... (only AC i watched)

Re: Mono or Multi for next America's Cup? [Re: Timbo] #215365
07/06/10 12:09 PM
07/06/10 12:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Timbo
Soo...nobody's got an opinion on weather it should be a Mono or a Multi?

I think the slower mono's actually offer better -match racing- if only because they are so slow the leader can't get very far away, very quickly, so the boat behind has a shot at getting a good shift and getting back into the race.

As we saw in this last match, when you have boats that can go 30 knots in only 8kt. of wind, well...not much chance to -catch up- once the leader escapes. Great to watch those two huge multis going fast, but as far as "Match Racing" ? Well, for me it seemed less than thrilling.


That's a terrible example. Those boats could not have been much further apart in potential performance and range of performance. They weren't designed to any box rule. The only things that are different between multi's and monos is that the speed is higher and the downwind angles are a little hotter on the multihulls. We can see some very exciting match racing on multis.

I'll be pretty surprised if we end up seeing the next america's cup on multihulls though...US Sailing is authoring the multihull box rule (WHAT in the hell?) so I have very little faith.

from Valencia Sailing
Quote
[Source: BMW Oracle] Rating rule authorities in America and Britain have been commissioned to draft the rules for the next generation of America’s Cup yacht.

In asking US SAILING and the Royal Ocean Racing Club’s Seahorse Rating affiliate to write the rules, BMW ORACLE Racing and Golden Gate Yacht Club, winner of the 33rd America’s Cup last February, has ensured the process is neutral and independent.

“We’ve always said that the new design will be for the America’s Cup community. The result with be a ‘non-partisan yacht’ rather than a ‘defender’s yacht’,” said Ian Burns, Design Coordinator for BMW ORACLE Racing. “A great deal of input was sought from the America’s Cup community and the concept briefs given to the rule writers reflect that feedback.”

In a twin-track process, US SAILING will author a multihull rule and the RORC’s Seahorse Rating a canting-keel monohull rule.

“It would be premature to rule either a monohull or multihull in and the other out at this stage,” commented Russell Coutts, CEO of BMW ORACLE Racing. “Which type of boat is best for racing and media impact is one of many evaluations we will be testing over the coming months.”

The choice between monohull and multihull will be made after the conclusion of these trials, the first round of which is scheduled for Valencia in late July.

“Either option will provide high performance, exciting viewing and challenges to design, build and sailing teams,” commented Burns.

Versatile performance in light and strong winds is considered essential to minimize delayed or postponed racing.

In response to feedback from potential teams, the original concepts for both types have been scaled back from 26m (82 feet) LOA to 22m (72 feet) for tangible cost reduction.

An engine will be used to cant the keel on the monohull and move appendages on the multihull. The rule authors have been tasked to specify an environmentally friendly, smart, low-emission engine or power-pack.

“This offers a great opportunity for the America’s Cup community to take a leading role in this increasingly applied technology,” said Burns. “But there will be no power- assistance for crews to trim or hoist sails. Both the monohull and multihull will be very athletic boats to race hard.”

To ensure fairness, all teams will simultaneously receive updates and information from the authors with regards to progress.

The briefs to the rule authors outline parameters for both types of boat to give base-line dimensions.

This ‘box rule’ method should ensure boats designed by different teams are similar in style to guarantee the close racing the America’s Cup thrives on. Otherwise, the instructions to the rule writers are deliberately open to afford them full creative freedom.

Seahorse Rating has asked Nick Nicholson and James Dadd, with their wide experience of previous America’s Cup class rules, to lead the monohull development.

The multihull rule is under the purview of multihull designer Pete Melvin, a two-time A Class catamaran world champion, and US SAILNG.

Other cost-cutting measures include limitations on the number of hulls, masts, appendages and sails a team can build. And the reduced crew size will mean fewer personnel.

“These boat concepts are all about similar performance between competing yachts throughout the wind range,” said Burns. “Unique configurations are the expensive part of the America’s Cup. We don’t want a light-air boat taking on a heavy-air boat. The rule should ensure close racing while being able to sail in a wide range of conditions.”

Rule writing is the seventh stage in an exhaustive process. The objective is to publish the new America’s Cup Class Rule by the end of September.

Labels: 34th America's Cup, BMW Oracle

posted by Valencia Sailing @ 3:56 PM 8 comments



Last edited by Jake; 07/06/10 12:19 PM.

Jake Kohl
Re: Mono or Multi for next America's Cup? [Re: Jake] #215366
07/06/10 12:16 PM
07/06/10 12:16 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Dan_Delave Offline
old hand
Dan_Delave  Offline
old hand

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
I would like to see it on Multis but will watch it on whatever they sail, because I like Match Racing.

Dan

Re: Mono or Multi for next America's Cup? [Re: Dan_Delave] #215368
07/06/10 12:30 PM
07/06/10 12:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Not interested in the AC. I really enjoyed the Swedish Match Cup series format, course and platfrom and if the AC is similar I'll watch. I'm done watching the hyper rich trying to determine who's dick is bigger.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Mono or Multi for next America's Cup? [Re: David Ingram] #215379
07/06/10 01:33 PM
07/06/10 01:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
O
orphan Offline
enthusiast
orphan  Offline
enthusiast
O

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
I don't like the use of a motor. Let's get back to basics. Man power only.

Re: Mono or Multi for next America's Cup? [Re: orphan] #215380
07/06/10 01:36 PM
07/06/10 01:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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waterbug_wpb  Offline
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Naples, FL
Aye, bring back the cannons! Arrgh


Jay

Re: Mono or Multi for next America's Cup? [Re: waterbug_wpb] #215393
07/06/10 03:17 PM
07/06/10 03:17 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
IndyWave Offline
enthusiast
IndyWave  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
The first thing they need to do is get rid of the wind speed and wave height restrictions. That was ridiculous to say the boats couldn't sail with 2 foot waves or 12 knot winds! And four hour delays before calling it off really stunk. As long as both boats face the same conditions, let 'em sail! If the boat breaks, that's racing! If the boat survives, THAT's good design.


What - Me Worry?


2006 Hobie Wave 7358
"Ish Kabibble"
Re: Mono or Multi for next America's Cup? [Re: orphan] #215396
07/06/10 03:33 PM
07/06/10 03:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

I don't like the use of a motor. Let's get back to basics. Man power only.



For a very long time I figured that the following rules would be exiting.

Externally powered winches and such are allowed when the inputted energy is derived fully from the boatspeed, windspeed or wave action.

The accumulation cells have to be "effectively flat" 1 min before the start. (implying they need to be charged first before they can be used to drive winches)

I'm looking forward to either human grinders charging the cells or having a small outboard propeller do it when the boat is propelled through the water. Solutions can range from pressured gas systems, spring systems to electrical setups. Either way the solution is completely green and in the spirit of sailing where all energy is derived from the interaction between the craft and the wind and water.

Anybody has a line to the rule writers ? And is willing to shot off an e-mail to them ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Mono or Multi for next America's Cup? [Re: Wouter] #215400
07/06/10 04:34 PM
07/06/10 04:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Wouter

Quote

I don't like the use of a motor. Let's get back to basics. Man power only.



For a very long time I figured that the following rules would be exiting.

Externally powered winches and such are allowed when the inputted energy is derived fully from the boatspeed, windspeed or wave action.

The accumulation cells have to be "effectively flat" 1 min before the start. (implying they need to be charged first before they can be used to drive winches)

I'm looking forward to either human grinders charging the cells or having a small outboard propeller do it when the boat is propelled through the water. Solutions can range from pressured gas systems, spring systems to electrical setups. Either way the solution is completely green and in the spirit of sailing where all energy is derived from the interaction between the craft and the wind and water.

Anybody has a line to the rule writers ? And is willing to shot off an e-mail to them ?

Wouter


I don't know who it is - I just hope they're not the ones that had anything to do with the Olympic fiasco. JW may know more but I'm sure he's up to his ears with the F18 worlds.


Jake Kohl
Re: Mono or Multi for next America's Cup? [Re: Jake] #215416
07/06/10 09:22 PM
07/06/10 09:22 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
dacarls Offline
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dacarls  Offline
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Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
U.S. Sailing is responsible for the multihull effort? I agree with Jake- what the H***??? And engines are now permanent?
Wouter's power accumulator systems sound 21st Century enough.... are they like Blow-Out-Preventors?


Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
Re: Mono or Multi for next America's Cup? [Re: dacarls] #215425
07/07/10 03:13 AM
07/07/10 03:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Hey Dave you still got a line with the rule writers in USsailing ?

Wouldn't it be nice to have such a rule ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Mono or Multi for next America's Cup? [Re: Wouter] #215427
07/07/10 03:33 AM
07/07/10 03:33 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 207
couldn't resist it
Codblow Offline
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Codblow  Offline
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Posts: 207
couldn't resist it
I virtually match raced my buddy in H5.9sx for a couple of years (we sailed in a fleet though ) it was boat on boat all the way with no let up , if the wind was up we pushed so hard one of us would likely take a dip ,high speed closing meeting on tacks gybes , covering , forcing out ,fighting at marks , you name it , same as mono match racing , just faster and a **** load more spectacular and on the edge (if anyone had watched ) yes , close tactical racing yes !!!.

Unfortunately the reporters I heard during last AC had little understanding of monohull racing and often hadn't a clue to what was really going on , this didn't help the uninitiated spectators either .

Big vote for Multis

Re: Mono or Multi for next America's Cup? [Re: Wouter] #215440
07/07/10 07:20 AM
07/07/10 07:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

It is a long shot, but I've just shot off an e-mail to the only mail adress for the 34th AC I could find.

If anybody has any other inroads then please use those as well.

Anything to keep the noisy fossile fueled engines offboard !

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands

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