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response to Mitch #215324
07/05/10 09:23 PM
07/05/10 09:23 PM
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McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
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Simon C Offline OP
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McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
Originally Posted by MitchB
Matt - Over in the mozzy thread you guys are talking about having cut all ties with the F16 class! Wasn't this to protect your Yardstick? You may want to talk to Gary before attending :P



Hi Mitch,

At the risk of repeating that which has been repeated repeatedlyÖ. smile

Mozzy with Spin is a class and has a yardstick rating from YV based on results sent in for the last 6 or 7 years.

Under the current F16 rules they are viewed as compliant and so are able (and judging by other comments, welcome) to compete in F16 events if they wish. Being an F16 event, the yardstick is irrelevant as all boats are rated equally regardless of whether they are in fact equal, as long as they fit in the box . Iím pretty sure thatís the point of a box rule.

Perhaps those who bang on about the Mozzy with spin Yardstick could try something other than complaining... here's two suggestions.

1. Get better and sail to your Yardstick.

2. If you think Mozzys with Spin are so damn fast compared to their rating.... buy one and join the fun. grin

Cheers,




Simon
Taipan AUS341
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: response to Mitch [Re: Simon C] #215327
07/06/10 01:39 AM
07/06/10 01:39 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Or you could stick Ashby on the Mossie and see where the yardstick should realy be :-P

Yardstick racing will never be perfect. If you want to race seriously without being disadvantaged by incorrect yardsticks, race OD or Formula


Re: response to Mitch [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #215328
07/06/10 02:23 AM
07/06/10 02:23 AM
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McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
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Simon C Offline OP
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McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
Or you could stick Ashby on the Mossie and see where the yardstick should realy be :-P



I am assuming you're not inferring that there aren't any good sailors sailing Mozzys.(not that I'd be one of them frown )

If you're not, I agree with you.... you could do this for any class with the same result.

If I raced my Mozzy around the bouys against Glenn on his A I would expect to be wiped.

If we swapped boats, I'd expect the same result.

I'd hardly call that reason to question the yardstick of either boat. Just a reflection that he's *hit hot with a tiller in his hand and I'm fairly crap at it. grin

I also agree that Yardsticks are not perfect, but there not a bad measure for mixed fleets.

As for "incorrect Yardsticks"...Which one is incorrect?..


Racing might be better managed if we all sailed the same boat, but of course we all wanna sail what we wanna sail


Cheers


Simon
Taipan AUS341
Re: response to Mitch [Re: Simon C] #215329
07/06/10 02:47 AM
07/06/10 02:47 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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A Class, Tornado and F18 Yardsticks for example are set with results from some red hot competitors and suffer against other classes in a yardstick regatta.


Re: response to Mitch [Re: Simon C] #215333
07/06/10 04:01 AM
07/06/10 04:01 AM
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Melbourne
Nic M Offline
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Here, here Simon. After our coaching weekend with Glenn we will all be as fast as Glenn and then all issues with yardstick will be sorted.

Btw, congrats on the new boat. Looking at your sail number does this mean we have a couple of new boats on the water over winter this year?

Last edited by Nic M; 07/06/10 04:07 AM.

Nic Maan
Sanity 1815
Re: response to Mitch [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #215337
07/06/10 06:10 AM
07/06/10 06:10 AM
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McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
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Simon C Offline OP
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McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
Sort of agree with you but..

If you look at results on adjusted times from open regattas in recent times you would see the top sailors from the Mozzy fleet, up the front, the mid fleeters around where you would expect and the workers up the back making everyone else look good.

The Guys who do well in mixed fleets are also the guys that are up the front in state and national titles.

You don't have to sail an A, Tornado or F18 to be a good sailor but I do conceed that those with talent and a budget (though not all) might gravitate to those classes. Also, sailing one of these classes doesn't necessarily mean the owner is a good sailor.

Perhaps we should discuss this over a beer sometime...should be a long conversation, possibly without a result, but it would be a great excuse hang around the bar and talk about boats smile

Cheers

Last edited by Anopheles_11; 07/06/10 07:07 AM.

Simon
Taipan AUS341
Re: response to Mitch [Re: Nic M] #215338
07/06/10 06:16 AM
07/06/10 06:16 AM
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McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
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Simon C Offline OP
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McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
Thanks Nic,

Taking delivery this weekend. I have a bit of fitting out to do myself and then off we go. I'll be launching her at McCrae with a chicken and champaign brekky (I'll let you know when in case you're down) and then plan to visit the Sugar Loaf boys for some pre season tuning.

Not sure about the sail number... thinks some plans have been sold between Matt's and mine but I am the next new one after Matt. Hopefully I won't be the newest for long as I gather a new set of hulls are already under way.

Cheers


Simon
Taipan AUS341
Re: response to Mitch [Re: Simon C] #215422
07/07/10 01:34 AM
07/07/10 01:34 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Furthermore, Yardsticks can also be inaccurate depending on conditions. A Mossie, particularly with kite can be brutal in the light stuff. When she is blowing 20 knots, not so. This is where the F18 and particularly the Tornado come alive.

Yardstick is only an average measure and there will always be discrepancies. Treat yardstick for what it is worth...... A bit of fun racing.

As for the beer, sounds good. Will have to come down and check out McCrae this season. Hoping to get a Taipan 4.9 or A Class soon, so would be keen to talk to the McCrae guys. Know of any well priced A's (preferably Flyer MkI or Boyer MkV) going for sale. I am keeping an eye out on the A Class and Taipan web site classifies.


Re: response to Mitch [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #215432
07/07/10 06:15 AM
07/07/10 06:15 AM
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McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
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Simon C Offline OP
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McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
Can I resist suggesting a Mozzy? grin oops.. did I type that out loud?

There's a flyer and a MKV from McCrae, both advertised on the A website. There's usally a few A's going in the off season so I'll ask around and PM you if there are any more on offer.

Come for a sail and a beer anytime.

Cheers


Simon
Taipan AUS341
Re: response to Mitch [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #215434
07/07/10 06:24 AM
07/07/10 06:24 AM
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Cape Town, South Africa
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Steven,
Don`t write the Mozzie with kite off in 20knots or more (especially more).
We`ve had first boat over the line in a medium distance race in 25-30knots being a Mozzie, with the first Tiger coming in 10min later. Sometimes less is more (less sail area = more upright!)
Also seen us start 5 min after the Tigers in course racing, and arrive at the weather leg 1 min behind the lead Tiger, but it has to be very windy for that to happen.
I`ve also held off a Tiger on a long downwind in approx. 15knots, but he murdered me on the next upwind, not for speed, but on pointing. I`m not sure who the better skipper was, but I used to be the crew on his boat..
The Hobie philosophy of not having other classes near them has put an end to open class racing here, so we won`t see how we go against them any more. It`s a pity, as SA catsailing is very small and could benefit from larger regattas if we could all just get along.

Re: response to Mitch [Re: Simon C] #215492
07/07/10 05:21 PM
07/07/10 05:21 PM
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Melbourne, Australia
MitchB Offline
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Hi Simon - I don't much appreciate being singled the way I have been, I see myself as a friend of all sailiing classes (monos included) and try to avoid putting down other classes! In response:

1. Get better and sail to your Yardstick
I think since I started sailing a few years ago I have been getting better, but yes, there is still a long way to go. I'm sure Gary can testify that I have come a long way since the first time I attended a Paynesville Easter Regatta!

2. If you think Mozzys with Spin are damn fast compared to their rating... buy one and join the fun
I do think that - But I don't sail a stingray because it rates well. I sail it because it carries a big guy like me and a really enjoy sailing with a crew, thats a big part of the overall enjoyment for me! (It was also a very cheap way to get into big cat saliing)

I didn't wish to sound antagonistic, I said what I did due to something you posted not long ago (the last sentance):

Originally Posted by Anopheles_11
YV allocated a handicap for the Mosquito with Spinnaker in 2003 (Before the F16 was listed). All results from every season have been sent in to the YV handicapper. The handicap has been adjusted twice in that time, and is currently set at 80. This is a tentative handicap (like most other classes)

The history of Mosquitos with the F16 class is this. Back around 2004 the first Mosquitoes rigged with spinnakers took part in F16 events, partly to boost the F16 numbers while the F16 class was finding its feet in Australia, and partly for the fun of chasing (and sometimes catching) faster boats around the course. At that time most F16s in Australia were either Taipans or Mosquitoes. These days there are F16s designed to the box rule such as the Blade and Viper which have raised the performance of F16s to their expected level (ie. close to F18s and A-classes). Consequently the Mosquitoes are not active with the F16s anymore.

Cheers,

Last edited by MitchB; 07/07/10 05:36 PM.

Stingray #579
GLYCish
Re: response to Mitch [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #215498
07/07/10 09:51 PM
07/07/10 09:51 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 46
Sugarloaf sailing club, Melbou...
Fat Bomber Offline
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Sugarloaf sailing club, Melbou...
I think it may be the sailors if my attempts at the Sauna sail with spinnaker is any indicator?

Re: response to Mitch [Re: MitchB] #215501
07/07/10 11:45 PM
07/07/10 11:45 PM
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McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
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Simon C Offline OP
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McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
Hi Mitch,

Firstly, you were not singled out so apologies if that's how it seemed to you. I simply wanted to move the thread so as not to Hijack the one your comment was made on. The title "response to Mitch" was purely to allow readers to follow. I don't know you so consequently I would not include you as one who "bangs on about the Mozzy with spin" My comments were directed at those who do.

Secondly, There is a big difference between "cutting all ties" and "not being active". No Mozzys went to the last F16 titles though they could have if they had chosen to.... I would describe that as not being active.

If you're going to quote someone, quote what they say, not your interpretation of what they say.

Thirdly, If you post a comment like that followed by a :P (emoticon for poking your tounge out or blowing a rasberry) there's every chance you will get a response.

I too support any sort of sailing. Frankly, if it's got a stick and a rag on it, and it floats, that's fine by me.

At no stage did I comment on your sailing ability, nor would I.... those who see me sail would understand why blush cry laugh

Looks like I'd better invite you for a sail and a beer too.... could be an expensive season for me at this rate laugh

Cheers



Simon
Taipan AUS341
Re: response to Mitch [Re: MitchB] #215595
07/08/10 11:34 PM
07/08/10 11:34 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
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East Gippsland, Australia
Tim_Mozzie Offline
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East Gippsland, Australia
Quote
I don't much appreciate being singled the way I have been


But Mitch, you were the one that said Mozzies were cutting all ties with the F16s to protect their yardstick! The quote you gave from Simon didn't say this at all. The truth is Mozzies started off the F16 activity in South Africa and then later in Victoria and now the F16 class is off and running by itself. The Mozzies just aren't involved here any more, and haven't been for a couple of years at least. I really don't understand why people keep banging on about it so much.

It was a rare example of two different cat classes actually co-operating for the fun of it. If only it could happen more often.



Tim Shepperd
Mosquito 1775
Karma Cat
Re: response to Mitch [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #215666
07/09/10 10:21 PM
07/09/10 10:21 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,632
Gippsland Lakes Victoria Aust...
stillbitten Offline
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Originally Posted by Steve_Kwiksilver
Steven,
Don`t write the Mozzie with kite off in 20knots or more (especially more).
We`ve had first boat over the line in a medium distance race in 25-30knots being a Mozzie, with the first Tiger coming in 10min later. Sometimes less is more (less sail area = more upright!)
Also seen us start 5 min after the Tigers in course racing, and arrive at the weather leg 1 min behind the lead Tiger, but it has to be very windy for that to happen.
I`ve also held off a Tiger on a long downwind in approx. 15knots, but he murdered me on the next upwind, not for speed, but on pointing. I`m not sure who the better skipper was, but I used to be the crew on his boat..
The Hobie philosophy of not having other classes near them has put an end to open class racing here, so we won`t see how we go against them any more. It`s a pity, as SA catsailing is very small and could benefit from larger regattas if we could all just get along.


Hi Steve,

you will have to excuse Stephen on this point, as most Ozzie Mozzie's with spinnaker sail one up, so we are well and truly getting our @$# kicked in the conditions you describe and that is what Stephen has seen happen. If the Tiger sailors are good enough to be upright they have smoked away over here.


Regards Gary.
Mosquito 1830
All opions expressed in this post are mine and mine alone, no assumptions should be made regarding any Associations or Clubs I may be a member of.
Re: response to Mitch [Re: stillbitten] #215671
07/10/10 12:59 AM
07/10/10 12:59 AM
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ok peoples,

what happened at pmyc stays there, it wasnt an f16 event and i got the short end of the stick. i asked if a can join the F16 nationals event. i know i cant beat them (hopefully at least 1)and i know the yard stick does not come into play, i realise that. i want to join the event to get better at myself. if you chase faster boats you get faster yourself. if you out in front you tend to slacken
off. port melb was NOT an f16 event thats why there was a problem with yardsticks. i want to do this event for fun and travelling (no harm done)

And the fight over the yard sticks im sick of it as i have a brother at home always fighting it as he is in a hobie 16 and its a never ending argument. i say if your not happy with it join us to see how fun this class is.


Matt

Re: response to Mitch [Re: Matt_Stone] #215712
07/10/10 07:51 PM
07/10/10 07:51 PM
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Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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From what I have seen on the race course, the Mossie with kite has a very clear advantage in very light winds (as does an A class upwind). When the wind picks up enough for a T or F18 to double trap, then the advantage is gone and the yardsitcks are realistic. When the breeze increases to the top end of the scale, the yardstick tends to favour the F18 and T more, so the current yardsticks I believe are close overall. If you stuck a kite on an A class, then there will be simular discussions about inaccurate yardsticks when the winds are light.

What I state above is based on the 1 up Mossie. 2 up Mossies are not as brutal in the light stuff as 1 up.


Re: response to Mitch [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #215717
07/10/10 11:18 PM
07/10/10 11:18 PM
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East Gippsland, Australia
Tim_Mozzie Offline
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To add to what you are saying Steve I would point out that at the most recent Vic Cat Champs at McRae last November the conditions could not have been better for the Mozzie with kite. There was just enough pressure to get the apparent going and it was light enough that the spin could be carried on every downwind and reach (traping on some of the reaches). Overall the first four places were filled with A-classes, then Mozzie with spin, then a Taipan, then another Mozzie with spin, then four more A-classes, a standard mozzie and then more Taipans.

The handicaps seemed to work out ok.

Results are here


Tim Shepperd
Mosquito 1775
Karma Cat
Re: response to Mitch [Re: Simon C] #215746
07/11/10 07:35 PM
07/11/10 07:35 PM
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Posts: 107
Melbourne, Australia
MitchB Offline
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Melbourne, Australia
G'day Simon

My comment was meant to be more tongue IN cheek than tongue OUT of cheek... so sorry about that!

I agree with the above comments that what I said wasn't a direct quote... maybe just reading between the lines a little too much... again sorry about that!

I also didn't mean to rekindle the "yardstick debate"... I dont THINK I have ever commented on any yardsticks being incorrect etc.

I know if I owned a mozzy with kite I'd be keen to do the F16 nats!... frankly I'd be wrapped if the F18's had grandfathered the Stingray!!!

I suppose its just hard for me to figure where you guys stand as a whole regarding the F16 stuff now!?

Finally - no doubt we will run into each other soon enough and be able to have a beer together! I look forward to it!


Stingray #579
GLYCish
Re: response to Mitch [Re: Tim_Mozzie] #215747
07/11/10 07:40 PM
07/11/10 07:40 PM
Joined: May 2008
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Melbourne, Australia
MitchB Offline
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Melbourne, Australia
Hi Tim

It was definately A-Class and Mozzy with Spin Conditions! I havn't looked at those results since the event!

I do feel a little sorry for the F-18's though... they both finished down the bottom... and now their yardstick as been dropped by another point frown


Stingray #579
GLYCish
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