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Taipan v. Viper #216136
07/19/10 09:39 PM
07/19/10 09:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6
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Phat Buoy Offline OP
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Phat Buoy  Offline OP
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I'm looking at getting out of my Nacra F18 and into something I can sail either alone or with my sons (ages 10 and 12) - boats that need crews suck!

Options in Australia are Blade, Viper & Taipan but I would prefer to stay with AHPC.

I think I would sail 2-up mostly in club races and 1-up for championships.

Seems to me the Viper works best as a sloop because of its volume. Would a Taipan unirig be 'more optimised' as an F16 than a Viper unrig?

I know there is a weight difference and I don't want to be the instigator of yet another weight argument - I am more interested in how volume effects performance in unirigs.

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Re: Taipan v. Viper [Re: Phat Buoy] #216138
07/19/10 10:48 PM
07/19/10 10:48 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 107
Melbourne, Australia
MitchB Offline
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MitchB  Offline
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 107
Melbourne, Australia
I would have thought if you want to sail with a spinnaker then get a Viper. If you don't want to sail with a spinnaker get a Taipan.


Stingray #579
GLYCish
Re: Taipan v. Viper [Re: Phat Buoy] #216139
07/19/10 11:42 PM
07/19/10 11:42 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 135
Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
colmc Offline
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colmc  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 135
Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
Your reasons are why I bought a Mosquito. smile



Col
"Now What?"
Mosquito 1810
Re: Taipan v. Viper [Re: MitchB] #216140
07/20/10 01:21 AM
07/20/10 01:21 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6
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Phat Buoy Offline OP
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Phat Buoy  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by MitchB
I would have thought if you want to sail with a spinnaker then get a Viper. If you don't want to sail with a spinnaker get a Taipan.


Mitch, if you buy my F18 I might be able to afford 1 of each!

Re: Taipan v. Viper [Re: Phat Buoy] #216143
07/20/10 03:34 AM
07/20/10 03:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Hello Phat Bouy,

I basically have Taipan hulls, rudders, daggers and mast making up an one-off F16; meaning it is full spec F16 in all other specifications except overall weight. My boat is a homebuild and therefore a little overweight (120 kg vs min 107 kg).

Basically, any 3rd generation F16 has the "new" hull volume but not all manufacturers use it as the core of their advertising. A 3rd generation F16 is the Falcon F16, Aussie Blade F16 (first into this respect) and the Viper F16. The 2nd generation F16's are the Stealth F16 and the US/VWM Blade F16 with the Taipan and such being the 1st generation. However the Stealth is hard to classify accurate as it can be put in either the 2nd or 3rd generation group based on its volume and its use of T-foils that make it a very stable ride overall. But the Stealth is not available to you and so we'll leave it at that. I have recently seen the Aquaraptor in the flesh but am, as of yet, unsure of where to put it in the way of hull volume/related behaviour; so we'll leave that one out of the analysis as well.

For 1-up sailing you don't really need that much of hull volume but it is always heaps better to have too much volume then to little and so it is better to optimize the boat for 2-up sailing. The Taipan platform is actually quite fast when sailed 1-up, especially in the light winds. It may even be the fastest 1-up F16 today when it is fully up to date in sails etc. In 2-up sailing it is less capable and is pretty much limited competitively to 145 kg max. For 2-up sailing it also really needs a selftacking jib or the trampoline space is really too small for the crew. The Aussie Blade and Viper have solved all such issues.

The Taipan also has a tendency to dive when going from upwind to downwind and when overtaking steep waves at high speed under spinnaker. You can learn to compensate for that as a skipper but it is another thing to do when racing. The newer boats are noticeably better here. It appears the VWM Blade F16 is well suited to 1-up sailing as the lower sail loads are more in line with its bow volume. Weight carrying wise this boat can also carry up to 165 kg competitively as basically all modern F16's. As such it is somewhere between the Taipan and Aussie Blade/Viper for 2-up sailing and somewhere at the top for 1-up sailing together with the (upgraded) Taipan.

So that is a describtion of the scene.

In my opinion, you can regard the Taipan as a relatively inexpensive F16 if you accept learning some additional skills for rough weather and diving. The Viper is the better AHPC product when it comes to 2-up sailing, no doubt about that. It is simply a full-on F16, especially for 2-up sailing. I'm not sure how it is under 1-up sailing though. I expect it to be very capable as well but not many Viper sailors appear to use it in that role. Typically F16 sailors with dominant 1-up schedules tend to gravitate towards the other F16 models.

Personally, I have heard only good things about the Aussie Blade F16 and it was very fast when singlehanded in the rough by Marcus at the GC 2007 and Gary at various Aus events. Its hull volume is practically the same as the Viper and such handle 2-up sailing accordingly. However, not too many 2-up crews have raced this model thus far. Personally, I would arrange for a test ride on either model and only then decide. That is if you are in the market for a truly new boat (higher costs) as neither will have many secondhand options. The Taipans will of course be very decent F16's for the right (secondhand) price.

I hope this gives you a better handle on the decision before you.

With kind regards,

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Taipan v. Viper [Re: Phat Buoy] #216146
07/20/10 04:24 AM
07/20/10 04:24 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
addict
Kris Hathaway  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Originally Posted by Phat Buoy
I would prefer to stay with AHPC.


Viper has the "Club" sails if/when your sons are ready to sail without/against Dad.


Kris Hathaway
Re: Taipan v. Viper [Re: Wouter] #216228
07/21/10 01:06 AM
07/21/10 01:06 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6
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Phat Buoy Offline OP
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Phat Buoy  Offline OP
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Posts: 6
Thanks for the comprehensive response, Wouter.

It seems that if I want to sail the Taipan as an F16, it will be far more competitive as a 1-up - which is what I thought.

There is still plenty of good racing to be had for Taipans without spinnakers and I think my boys aren't quite strong enough for a spinnaker yet anyway.

Looks like it is a Taipan sloop/Taipan F16 unirig combination for me.

Hopefully my boys get stronger and keener and make me buy them a Viper in 2 years time anyway - and that would be a fantastic outcome!


Re: Taipan v. Viper [Re: Phat Buoy] #216354
07/22/10 03:57 PM
07/22/10 03:57 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 107
Melbourne, Australia
MitchB Offline
member
MitchB  Offline
member

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 107
Melbourne, Australia
Ahhhh I have put the pieces together now 'Phat Bouy'...

Does this mean you are walking away from the most exclusive catamaran association.... frown... cant be tempted by a stingray... or a cube haha


Stingray #579
GLYCish
Re: Taipan v. Viper [Re: MitchB] #216357
07/22/10 04:41 PM
07/22/10 04:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6
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Phat Buoy Offline OP
stranger
Phat Buoy  Offline OP
stranger
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6
I wondered when the penny would drop...

You mean the Taipan doesn't qualify for the Redundant Catamaran Club?

Based on how fast your Stingray goes maybe I should consider one. As for QB's, would you believe we are having a 40th anniversary party for the Quest B2 in December?

Re: Taipan v. Viper [Re: Phat Buoy] #216371
07/22/10 11:13 PM
07/22/10 11:13 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 142
3 weeks Newman WA 1 week Robe ...
Brian P Offline
member
Brian P  Offline
member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 142
3 weeks Newman WA 1 week Robe ...
most of the stingrays sail with family members, i know its not F16 but i sail with my 19 year old son in heavy wind and my 10 year old daughter in the lighter winds. its not about trophies, its about ****s and giggles for your $, isnt it?


Brian Partridge
STINGRAY 580 "Fantasia"
A Class 585 "FHARKEN A"


YOU CAN'T POLISH A TURD
BUT YOU CAN ROLL IT IN GLITTER!!!!!
Re: Taipan v. Viper [Re: Kris Hathaway] #216525
07/27/10 07:24 AM
07/27/10 07:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
veteran
Buccaneer  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
So does the Taipan then (same sail maker).grin

Originally Posted by Kris Hathaway
Originally Posted by Phat Buoy
I would prefer to stay with AHPC.


Viper has the "Club" sails if/when your sons are ready to sail without/against Dad.


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." Ben Bernanke 2005
Re: Taipan v. Viper [Re: Phat Buoy] #216526
07/27/10 07:35 AM
07/27/10 07:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
veteran
Buccaneer  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
I'm just wondering if indeed maximum beam is actually faster on the Taipan or not (especially in light winds).

Has it ever been proven?

Originally Posted by Phat Buoy
Thanks for the comprehensive response, Wouter.

It seems that if I want to sail the Taipan as an F16, it will be far more competitive as a 1-up - which is what I thought.

There is still plenty of good racing to be had for Taipans without spinnakers and I think my boys aren't quite strong enough for a spinnaker yet anyway.

Looks like it is a Taipan sloop/Taipan F16 unirig combination for me.

Hopefully my boys get stronger and keener and make me buy them a Viper in 2 years time anyway - and that would be a fantastic outcome!



"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." Ben Bernanke 2005

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