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CO2 fired anti-turtle device? #10613
09/17/02 12:31 PM
09/17/02 12:31 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 217
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jcasto1 Offline OP
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In a different thread called "painting hulls", bdrew asked :



"has anyone ever heard of a CO2 fired anti turtle device? With the waves being such here sometimes you don't have control of that down ward spriral of the mast. "



Thought I'd post it as a spearate thread, to see if we can get some responses.


Jim Casto
NACRA 5.5 & NACRA 5.7
Austin TX
Lake Travis
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: CO2 fired anti-turtle device? [Re: jcasto1] #10614
09/17/02 01:08 PM
09/17/02 01:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
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MI
hI j



I usually just yell real loud ,--HEY TURTLE ,--GET OUT OF THE WAY , --TURTLE -TURTLE whoop whoop whoop !

Usually they will , but we noticed the ones in the more Southern waters of Florida responded quickly and dove under while some in more northern regions along the Carolina coast in colder water are a little slower so you have to sometimes turn to avoid them , some look like they're big as a V W out there .

May is sometimes mating season for turtles so you have to really watch for those __{but divert your eyes at the appropriate time } -- they are not going to move much at all , and some just after are lying on their backs with smiles on their faces so you know they are.nt going to respond much either, so watch out for them also .



Hey --It's stupid joke day ,-



One of the best solutions I saw to prevent the boat inverting mast down after a capsize ,-{known as turtling a catamaran }

was on two rental boats locally ,-they fitted foam floatation on the upper front section of the mast in an aerodynamic shape with it and covered it in mesh fabric .

It would work much the same as a mast top float ,or co-2 inflatable , for any needing this added safety feature .



hope that is helpfull

Carl


Re: CO2 fired anti-turtle device? [Re: jcasto1] #10615
09/17/02 02:45 PM
09/17/02 02:45 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 277
Baton Rouge, LA
Dean Offline
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Baton Rouge, LA
I've stuffed foam noodles up my mast after removing the mast cap. I think I put about six of them in there. Seal the rivets and mast caps with silicone. Take the mast to the water, submerge it a little, and mark any bubble locations that may show up. Seal those. The mast will now provide a lot of floatation resistance to turtling. The noodles only weigh a few ounces. It would take days spent in the water to soak the noodles if the mast does leak and even then the noodles will still provide flaotation.

Re: CO2 fired anti-turtle device? [Re: jcasto1] #10616
09/17/02 05:44 PM
09/17/02 05:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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I spent about 20 minutes getting my Nacra 6.0 up from turtle (twice - dang mainsheet was cleated during righting) this past weekend when an informal race fleet got nailed with a 40 mph blast from an incoming storm. The three boats that capsized went turtle because we were all on beam reaches and the ensuing capsizes placed the masts downwind of the hulls in the water. After seeing the forces involved with the wind pushing on the boat in this attitude, I don't think that there is much that will prevent every turtle. However, something like this might slow down the inversion and speed up the righting process - perhaps even make it automatic. I'm happy to say that my mast was sealed quite well and we got the boat up from turtle in a matter of minutes. The other two boats weren't as lucky as both had water in their masts and had to get powered assistance to get back from turtle. SEAL THOSE MASTS!


Jake Kohl
I agree with Jake [Re: Jake] #10617
09/17/02 08:20 PM
09/17/02 08:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 292
Long Island, NY
Ed Norris Offline
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I picture it this way:

Say your boat's turtling, right at that moment, whatever forces are acting to turtle it are able to overcome the bouyancy of the top third of your mast, driving it into the drink. The deeper your mast goes, the more bouyancy is being overcome.



So the top third has a certain definite volume; and displaces that much seawater upwards. It's got weight too, but as we add flotation, that flotation is near enough to weightless so that we can consider the weight of the entire mast, with and without flotation, to be (darn near) constant. So you add some flotation, ie, volume. How much volume, compared to the volume of the top third of a mast, can you realistically add?



I can't imagine doubleing or anywhere's near doubling the volume. I guess, right at the beginning of a turtle event, when only the top foot is under the briny, you could double the volume *of that top foot* but, if this is a real turtle coming on, the forces at play must be sufficient to submerge the entire mast, and so, a mere doubling of the relatively small volume of the top foot won't trouble that kind of turtling force.



Maybe some of the milder turtling events can be resisted, right at the outset, due to the leverage of having some extra flotation out there, but a real gust blowind down on the tramp... Jake make's sense to me when he says, "I don't think that there is much that will prevent every turtle."





Sail Fast, Ed Norris
Re: I agree with Jake [Re: Ed Norris] #10618
09/17/02 08:35 PM
09/17/02 08:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Also part of my point (albeit rather unexplained previously) is that in order for any 'deploying' system to have a chance to work, it needs to be automatically fired but this will likely make the cost prohibitive. Last weekend, we weren't in the water for more than 10 seconds before the boat was almost completely turtle. Once the main sail scooped just a little water the fat lady was singing - we would have never had a chance to initiate some manually operated system. Heck, I had barely gotten the water out of my nose by then! [Linked Image]



I sure would like to see someone calculate the additional wind resistance and healing moment of a stationary (vaning) mast float such as the Hobie Bob (Wouter?). I can't believe that it would be that much. Maybe we need someone to win a couple of races with a mast float!


Jake Kohl
Re: Anti-turtle devices [Re: sail6000] #10619
09/18/02 08:21 AM
09/18/02 08:21 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 273
Key Largo, FL
MaryAWells Offline
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Key Largo, FL
I have always been in favor of masthead floats like the Hobie bob, especially for recreational sailors who are usually out there by themselves without other boats around and for people who take non-sailors and children for rides. However, every safety feature always seems to have a negative side, as well. In the case of the Hobie Wave, for example, which comes standard with a masthead float, the "Bob" does a great job of preventing the boat from turtling. However, it does such a good job that it creates another problem. When the boat capsizes, it is lying on its nice smooth side and the end of the mast is lying on that nice smooth side of the bob. The wind is pushing on the under side of the trampoline, and the boat goes skating across the water like an iceboat until you go and stand on the hull forward of the main beam and depress the bow so the boat will start pointing into the wind. So when I am orienting people to sail our Hobie Waves, I always stress that the number one most important thing to do if the boat capsizes is to hold onto the boat, because it can go "sailing" away on its side very quickly, and you won't be able to catch it. Maybe what Carl suggests as far as the flotation "strip" on the upper part of the mast would make for slower downwind drift.

Has anybody tried the mast flotation strips?


Mary A. Wells
Re: I agree with Jake [Re: Jake] #10620
09/18/02 08:33 AM
09/18/02 08:33 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
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MI
Sounds like a great cartoon contraption -

THE ANTI TURTLE DEVISE -

blasting a loud horn and stream of air ,propelled by cold CO-2 at turtles ,

you would just make em mad , -

sorry , have a visual thinking sometimes absurd sence of humor .

It will be on the next trash T V show ,--

WHEN TURTLES ATTACK !!!



Need to get out sailing ,-

anyway -

A lightweight carbon fiber mast is the best thing I,ve experienced , but we have turtled that in extreme conditions , we have also had the boat right itself .



As mast building techniques improve and become less expensive we may see all going to lighterweight composite type materials , along with lighterweight sails making them much safer ,better performing speed wise,-much less likely to turtle , though in some severe conditions it is inevitable ..



The problem with mast floats or added devises is the added weight up the mast which initially actually encourges a capsize and potential turtle to occur ,--it is somewhat self defeating . -You would take the weight of the float times distance up the mast in ft lbs that add to moment . Just as placing a taller mast on a boat would make it easier to capsize , it,s the added weight up high .



-To roughly calc buoyancy of a mast float take the volume area it displaces in water which weighs 64 lb per sq ft ,-or 62 fresh water , then add the distance of lever arm {mast } .

Working against this to cause the boat to turtle is the weight and degree of incline of the upper hull in relation to the center of buoyancy in the lower ,-this sometimes in larger waves where this is constantly changing ,-add the force of wind on the tramp area at x mph , and also crew weight and its position relative to it, which I have no idea how to accurately figure , though may give an average estimate .

The best solution is to study existing designs and their characteristics and improve upon them ,

Setting some type of min scantling requirements for strength and buoyancy may be well intentioned ,but so many other factors come into play in total design and other potential better solutions that may be possible .



For small cats with this potential problem it seems a larger volume section ,-lighter ,well sealed mast would be fitted.



The problem of righting larger cat or tri designs has been studied extensively , all types of proposed solutions have been offered , it is an interesting problem to solve , but as Jake noted sometimes the sea wins and as is testiment in areas like Cape Hatteras N C where so many shipwrecks and old hull skelitons of all types now reside along its coastline .-Multihulls can always find a safe beach ,!!

That may be the best safety factor of all for coastal sailing .



Thanks Ed Jake and all ,




Re: Anti-turtle devices [Re: MaryAWells] #10621
09/18/02 08:49 AM
09/18/02 08:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Mary,



I didn't consider the speed the boat might maintain with the mast float. Now that you mention it I bet that is a problem. I don't think I could have kept up with the boat once the mast was pointed windward if I lost my handhold last weekend....Sooo, now we are to a self deploying CO2 fired floatation bag at the top of the mast with a self deploying water chute that also attaches to the top of the mast and not only slows the boat down in the water but will help swing the mast around into the wind! (that was a joke).


Jake Kohl
Re: Anti-turtle devices [Re: Jake] #10622
09/18/02 12:25 PM
09/18/02 12:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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I keep a righting bag on my boat, more for the purpose of maybe needing it for a drogue than for actual righting. It's not automatic of course, but if one person is on the boat and the other is not, it could be deployed to help slow the boat's drift down enough for the separated crew to catch up. I haven't actually tried it, though. I figure it could also work as a bit of a sea anchor in a really nasty blow as well.



Note to the earlier post about noodles stuffed in the mast - this will not increase flotation of the mast UNLESS it is leaking (and only because it will keep the mast from filling completely). In fact, it will reduce flotation if the mast is sealed, abeit by the small amount a noodle weighs. Except that small amount of weight is now at the end of a lever you must counteract to right the boat.

Re: CO2 fired anti-turtle device? [Re: sail6000] #10623
09/18/02 12:26 PM
09/18/02 12:26 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 217
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jcasto1 Offline OP
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Your description of the foam flotation on mast reminds me of a C-Scow at the yacht club here. C-Scow has a very tall mast, hugely over-powered sail plan. He has some kind of triangular foam slabs sewn onto top section of sail, almost like life jacket panels. It's masthead flotation, for when he tips over. The shape is flat, so as to reduce wind drag, I guess. It works.


Jim Casto
NACRA 5.5 & NACRA 5.7
Austin TX
Lake Travis
Re: Anti-turtle devices [Re: Keith] #10624
09/18/02 03:54 PM
09/18/02 03:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 552
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brobru Offline
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...see, an exciting event to those honest enough to talk about it,...the turtle!



...yeah,..I did a beaut......here is my opinion,....



...it is the sail full sitting in a sea upside-down that messes things up....



...I would suppose,....that if we all turtled out cats to the max with out the sails up,.......they would flip to normal PDQ...



....to which you readers are now saying....' well no kidding'.......



...point being,..seal the mast - sure,....floatation - ok,....face it,...the majority of the resistance is that sail (..now a sea anchor..)





Bruce



St. Croix




Re: Anti-turtle devices [Re: Keith] #10625
09/18/02 04:34 PM
09/18/02 04:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 47
Mark Meis Offline
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Boats turtle very fast when capsized in big wind. the wind gets behind the tramp and just pushes the boat over.



But you can use the wind to get a turtled boat back over. Just send 1 of the crew to the downwind side when the boat is in the turtled position and the topside will lift and the boat will right itself fast. I pulled this trick off a few times.



Actually I was thinking about mast floatation and the idea crossed my mind that you could insert positive flotation devices similar to what is in your hull inside the mast then if the mast leaked these cylinder tubes would create positive floatation.



Sail fast and keep the stick up.


Mark C28R no. 140 Houston, TX
Re: CO2 fired anti-turtle device? [Re: jcasto1] #218029
08/23/10 02:46 PM
08/23/10 02:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
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Amoore Offline
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I found one... Made By Adirontek Inc. called the Mast Riter Anti-Turtling system. Circa???? Can't find any current info on it. Vintage innovation! Co2 canister feeds CO2 through a tube to inflate a baloon at the top of the mast. Pictures available upon request. I'm going to post it on ebay for $50

Re: CO2 fired anti-turtle device? [Re: jcasto1] #218036
08/23/10 03:50 PM
08/23/10 03:50 PM
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Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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CO2 fired device:
Secumar AntiCapsize Device

Of course, a better solution is a righting pole like Rick sells on this site.

An even better solution is to NEVER capsize grin



Last edited by Tornado; 08/23/10 03:51 PM.

Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: CO2 fired anti-turtle device? [Re: Tornado] #218037
08/23/10 03:59 PM
08/23/10 03:59 PM

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andrewscott
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andrewscott
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Originally Posted by Tornado
CO2 fired device:
Secumar AntiCapsize Device

Of course, a better solution is a righting pole like Rick sells on this site.

An even better solution is to NEVER capsize grin




Does Rick sell this product "Never capsize"? i haven't seen it anywhere in the stores.

Re: CO2 fired anti-turtle device? [Re: jcasto1] #218041
08/23/10 04:36 PM
08/23/10 04:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 266
UK
Cheshirecatman Offline
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I guess this is what you are looking for:

http://www.speedsails.co.uk/C~Mast_Head_Floats_4875.html

Cheshirecatman

Re: CO2 fired anti-turtle device? [Re: Cheshirecatman] #218058
08/23/10 07:06 PM
08/23/10 07:06 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,382
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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I need a CO2 bucket that fires out the back during a pitchpole. That way I could watch my wife go out to the end of the trap line and back round the mast to pick up the bucket on the way back grin.


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: CO2 fired anti-turtle device? [Re: JeffS] #218059
08/23/10 07:14 PM
08/23/10 07:14 PM

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andrewscott
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andrewscott
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nice,
i was dreaming about a spud shooter spin pole last week... this could work for that but a bit fancy for my needs

Re: CO2 fired anti-turtle device? [Re: Tornado] #218060
08/23/10 07:50 PM
08/23/10 07:50 PM

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andrewscott
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andrewscott
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Originally Posted by Tornado
CO2 fired device:
Secumar AntiCapsize Device

Of course, a better solution is a righting pole like Rick sells on this site.

An even better solution is to NEVER capsize grin




nice, easy instructions... wow

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