| Re: F16 wings
[Re: taipanfc]
#219332 09/13/10 08:12 AM 09/13/10 08:12 AM |
Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,669 Melbourne, Australia Tornado_ALIVE
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Posts: 1,669 Melbourne, Australia | You certainly moved a lot of dirt over the weekend so should have lots of practical experience . And I think I have gained a few inches length in my arms. Should help with the spinnaker sets. But logic is that the beam width is made to be 2.5m for a Taipan with the addition of wings. So distance from pivot point is same for Taipan and Viper Not quite as the cat will not pivot on the end of its wing (hope not anyway) but the centre of the hull. Beam alone does not give you RM, weight will also contribute and the further you move it away from the pivot point (hulls and rig) the more RM you achieve. But mast for Taipan is 1.17m v 1.25m on Viper closer to pivot. So effect is similar to a wheelbarrow but efforts are reversed. You can move more weight on a wheelbarrow the closer it is to the pivot point, that is the axle. Do you want to move more weight easier on a catamaran (we are talking healing here, not forward momentum) or resist it. | | | Re: F16 wings
[Re: taipanfc]
#219335 09/13/10 08:29 AM 09/13/10 08:29 AM |
Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,669 Melbourne, Australia Tornado_ALIVE
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Posts: 1,669 Melbourne, Australia | TA, to clarify with your diagram, the taipan with wings is 2.66m wide as the rules state that the measurement is taken from leeward hull. So I could put 16cm wings on either side. Ahh, got you. Did not read the rule, however all else applies. Disadvantage is just not as small as I thought. Think of the weight of the hull and rig being brought closer to the pivot. Would be like only half trapping or hiking rather then full. | | | Re: F16 wings
[Re: taipanfc]
#219340 09/13/10 09:10 AM 09/13/10 09:10 AM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 953 Western Australia Stewart
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Posts: 953 Western Australia | True, but i could make a Viper narrower, put wings on and still meet the F16 class rules, have greater leverage and have the wings extended out the back of the boat to help "launch it" downwind.
Not sure how you increase leverage. please explain.. your distance from the centre of lateral resistance is the same. Please explain to this old mind how you're increasing righting moment.. I asked a while ago and if I recall the crew must have at least one foot on the hull.. Otherwise one could trap on the shoulders of the other crew.. This would increase righting far more than any other option.. | | | Re: F16 wings
[Re: Tony_F18]
#219341 09/13/10 09:12 AM 09/13/10 09:12 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | I thought the original poster, who asked about wings, was going to do some long distance race (6 days?) and wanted to be more comfortable, sitting on the wings, vs. hanging on a trap wire all day, for 6 days.
So...has anyone ever sailed a long distance race while sitting on the wings vs. trapping out? I know the Worrell guys trapped for 10 days or more, no wings there!
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: F16 wings
[Re: Tony_F18]
#219342 09/13/10 09:19 AM 09/13/10 09:19 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 1,021 Australia macca
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Posts: 1,021 Australia | I think Macca is a bit obsessed with banana-boards today, after he spent all of yesterday playing around on the F20 Carbon ;-)
Yep! its awesome, and thats why its so daft to restrict such a good development in the class (if the philosophy is still to have it as a development class...) Right now you can spend a LOT of money on an F16 with carbon beams, mast, pole plus hull construction etc just to get an incremental but definite gain in performance. Yet something as simple as curved boards is not allowed which gives a measurable gain for not much cost increase over straight boards! | | | Re: F16 wings
[Re: taipanfc]
#219343 09/13/10 09:28 AM 09/13/10 09:28 AM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 953 Western Australia Stewart
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Posts: 953 Western Australia | the max is 2.5 meters. Having a fixed beam of 2.66 would make the boat class illegal. Wing tip to wing tip.. Not hull to wingtip.. relevant rule. (from website)
1.2.3 Wings may be carried as long as the equivalent overall beam, when measured over the platform, and one fully extended wing is 2.5 m or less.
Last edited by Stewart; 09/13/10 09:29 AM.
| | | Re: F16 wings
[Re: taipanfc]
#219348 09/13/10 10:05 AM 09/13/10 10:05 AM |
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... scooby_simon Hull Flying, Snow Sliding.... |
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Scooby_Simon, see your point of taking into account rig weight aloft as this would fall over the pivot point quicker in my taipan v viper example, but have we measured the extra force you able to exert through the lever effect v this force of the mast over the pivot. Would be interesting to see these calcs in the whole picture. Do not understand the comment on pivot point; the pivot point for all forces IS the leeward hull; the only differece wings give you is to make the boat thinner and thus reduce the RM provided by the hull; the mast IS NOT the pivot point on a Cat; the leeward hull is. Remember the RM is there to overcome the lateral force created by the sail; this pivots at the leeward hull; you cannot use the standard "see-saw" diagrams to understand the forces as the heeling forces (sail forces) are at 90 degrees to the RM and so where EVER you put the mast; the heeling moment is the same and always resolves to the leeward hull.
F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD I also talk sport here | | | Re: F16 wings
[Re: scooby_simon]
#219356 09/13/10 10:56 AM 09/13/10 10:56 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | From the original post, which has yet to be addressed:
"...I am doing regardless as i am entering a charity fundraiser which requires a 6 day coast sail and the wings as a seat will be awsome i can remove them later if they are just a hinderence thanks..."
So, would you add wings as a seat "for a 6 day fundraiser" or not?
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: F16 wings
[Re: Stewart]
#219400 09/13/10 08:59 PM 09/13/10 08:59 PM |
Joined: Jul 2002 Posts: 539 taipanfc
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Posts: 539 | the max is 2.5 meters. Having a fixed beam of 2.66 would make the boat class illegal. Wing tip to wing tip.. Not hull to wingtip.. relevant rule. (from website)
1.2.3 Wings may be carried as long as the equivalent overall beam, when measured over the platform, and one fully extended wing is 2.5 m or less. You just answered your question by quoting the rule. The platform width of a Taipan is 2.34m. One extended wing is 0.16m which would make it to 2.5m. But wing to wing it is 2.66m. | | | Re: F16 wings
[Re: taipanfc]
#219498 09/14/10 04:11 AM 09/14/10 04:11 AM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 953 Western Australia Stewart
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Posts: 953 Western Australia | I think your missing an issue.. If the wings are fixed you can only have wings that are 0.08 wide. This will take the width to the full 2.5.
If they are folding then yes you can have have the 0.16 wings. BUT if they stop folding you're illegal. I wonder if they stop folding in a race what happens?? Yes you started legally but you sailed illegally so guess disqualified??
As I see it your still only 2.5 meters from the point of lateral resistance.. So the difference standing on a gunwale or standing on a beam is?? What you suggesting is why not make your hulls 0.6 cm apart and only use wings.. Your thinking would suggest this is the fastest config? Tried this on an 18 and swum lots.. So Im still missing the advantage... just dumb I guess..
Last edited by Stewart; 09/14/10 04:14 AM.
| | | Re: F16 wings
[Re: Stewart]
#219504 09/14/10 08:12 AM 09/14/10 08:12 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe |
Stewart,
Taipanfc (james) is right. The rule is not concerned at all with the fact whether the wings are folding or not; it only equalizes the righting moments. To do so only requires the inclusion of one fully extended wing as the leeward hull is the pivot point and not the leeward wing.
Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
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