| F16/F18 #220904 10/05/10 03:10 PM 10/05/10 03:10 PM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp OP
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Posts: 5,525 | This point of view just came to my attention:
"at this point in time, the best thing for the NA cat racing scene would be for the F16’s and F18’s to stage a single Formula Race Week with the two fleets racing on the same course."- name withheld to protect the gonads of the innocent.
I didn't say it, but I couldn't agree more.
Last edited by pgp; 10/05/10 03:11 PM.
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: F16/F18
[Re: pgp]
#220914 10/05/10 04:05 PM 10/05/10 04:05 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | Interesting that you find it necessary to "protect the gonads of the innocent" especially since you're the poster child for the whole light of day thing. Don’t bother telling me who said it I know who it was and their motivation behind it. And Pete it’s not as altruistic as you think it is. As long as the F18 fleet has the critical mass to find a host willing to put on our North American Championship with an F18 only course we will always work towards that goal. This of course assumes that it is the wishes of the USF18 membership to pursue this type of format. The USF18 fleet is run by the members for the members and if wants to go in a different direction that's what we will do.
Personally I don’t see how adding another fleet to the F18 course enhances the North American F18 Championship.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: F16/F18
[Re: David Ingram]
#220921 10/05/10 04:29 PM 10/05/10 04:29 PM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp OP
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Posts: 5,525 | Ding has his panties in a wad! Who said anything about altruism? And if I'm the "poster child for the whole light of day thing". What does that make you? The Prince of Darkness? You know "their motivation"? Now you're a mind reader too? No wonder I can't beat you at poker. If I'd known all your powers I wouldn't have wasted my $3. Lighten up Dingy! It's just sailing!
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: F16/F18
[Re: pgp]
#220922 10/05/10 04:43 PM 10/05/10 04:43 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | Nope... not getting sucked into the void this time. See ya Pete.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: F16/F18
[Re: David Ingram]
#220926 10/05/10 05:23 PM 10/05/10 05:23 PM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 894 Branford, CT rhodysail
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Posts: 894 Branford, CT | Interesting that you find it necessary to "protect the gonads of the innocent" especially since you're the poster child for the whole light of day thing. Don’t bother telling me who said it I know who it was and their motivation behind it. And Pete it’s not as altruistic as you think it is. As long as the F18 fleet has the critical mass to find a host willing to put on our North American Championship with an F18 only course we will always work towards that goal. This of course assumes that it is the wishes of the USF18 membership to pursue this type of format. The USF18 fleet is run by the members for the members and if wants to go in a different direction that's what we will do.
Personally I don’t see how adding another fleet to the F18 course enhances the North American F18 Championship. +1 | | | Re: F16/F18
[Re: rhodysail]
#220929 10/05/10 05:39 PM 10/05/10 05:39 PM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp OP
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Posts: 5,525 | Umm. I'm not so sure that a big, modern catamaran extravaganza would absolutely have to be a National Championship. It might be a neat thing in and of itself. We just had a lot of fun with around 40 boats of all descriptions and the world didn't spin off it's axis and fall into the void. If it had been 100 boats it might have been even more fun. Maybe we should try it some time? "Racine Race Week" sounds nice. But I like the sound of "City of Palms" race week even better. http://www.cityftmyers.com/We have our own river district. http://www.cityftmyers.com/Default.aspx?tabid=544 It could be like "Mardi Gras" south! Or Charleston but not so cold.
Last edited by pgp; 10/05/10 05:47 PM.
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: F16/F18
[Re: pgp]
#220930 10/05/10 05:53 PM 10/05/10 05:53 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | ok...sell it.
What are the advantages for the F18 class to combine their Championship event with the F16 class?
What are the advantages for the F16 class to combine their Championship event with the F18 class?
Jake Kohl | | | Re: F16/F18
[Re: Jake]
#220934 10/05/10 06:10 PM 10/05/10 06:10 PM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp OP
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Posts: 5,525 | ...or not.
It's the fleet/championship thing that seems to be devisive. I'd like to think about "Mardi Gras South" for awhile and see how it grows on me. Fiddle around with the concept of a training seminar/race package combine for two or three days. And maybe a distance run down to the Gulf and back one day. Try to get some tee times just in case the wind doesn't cooperate. Might throw in a fishing charter or two, some tennis, maybe a little kayaking... The more I think about it the more possibilities come to mind. Hell maybe even propose that the F16s drop a National Title event in favor of Party Week! You just never know what people are going to do...
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: F16/F18
[Re: David Ingram]
#220936 10/05/10 06:16 PM 10/05/10 06:16 PM |
Joined: Sep 2001 Posts: 756 Newport, RI wildtsail
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Posts: 756 Newport, RI | Interesting that you find it necessary to "protect the gonads of the innocent" especially since you're the poster child for the whole light of day thing. Don’t bother telling me who said it I know who it was and their motivation behind it. And Pete it’s not as altruistic as you think it is. As long as the F18 fleet has the critical mass to find a host willing to put on our North American Championship with an F18 only course we will always work towards that goal. This of course assumes that it is the wishes of the USF18 membership to pursue this type of format. The USF18 fleet is run by the members for the members and if wants to go in a different direction that's what we will do.
Personally I don’t see how adding another fleet to the F18 course enhances the North American F18 Championship. +1 I share the viewpoint of Ding and like him I really wish you'd stop trying to stir the pot, all your doing is creating politics that detract from what the F18 and F16 for that mater are doing to grow. You say it's just sailing, but to people like Ding and others who have done the work, it's a lot more. | | | Re: F16/F18
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#220938 10/05/10 06:18 PM 10/05/10 06:18 PM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp OP
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Posts: 5,525 | The pot is being stirred only if you allow it. I can't make you angry, you choose to be angry. The thought being offered is just an idea. As such it is as valid as anyone elses. As we've seen this evening, more than one person agrees with the idea. If those who wish to maintain the status quo were less hostile, you might find a pleasant exchange of thoughts that leads to something better. In any case, minus the hostility you would have a pleasant exchange. Imo, that has value in and of itself. The real problem here is not pot stirring or difference of opinion but intolerance. People will always disagree but if it's managed properly it can be constructive.
Last edited by pgp; 10/05/10 06:29 PM.
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: F16/F18
[Re: pgp]
#220942 10/05/10 06:48 PM 10/05/10 06:48 PM |
Joined: Jul 2009 Posts: 19 US5352
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Posts: 19 | Hi Jake:
Here's the rest of my post from which Pete pulled the quote--
I am among the relatively few teams that have the ability to race both platforms. That being said, however, I would NOT be in favor of moving the F16 event to allow for more convenient attendance at both. I’m encouraged to see something proposed in the spirit of cooperation between the two classes, but I believe such efforts would be better for NA catamaran racing if the outcome truly brings the two classes closer together, rather than maintaining separation. In my opinion, at this point in time, the best thing for the NA cat racing scene would be for the F16’s and F18’s to stage a single Formula Race Week with the two fleets racing on the same course. (Yup, I said it. Go ahead and start the flame throwers). We simply don’t have the critical mass that exists in Europe. Maybe someday we will. Bigger events provide undeniable scale advantages that translate into much greater value for regatta participants and much less financial risk for regatta organizers. If people have that much vacation time to burn on cat sailing, I suspect they’d be far more likely spend it on a Formula and an A, than on two Formulas.
Daniel Hearn F16 #157 F18 #601 A-Cat #180
I'd also suggest that the discussion should be refraimed around the question: how is this good for catamaran racing? Now, more than ever, our sport is competing for people's limited recreational time (and dollars) and the statistics regarding the decline in participation in any type of sailing are frightening. We need to pull together and make it more fun to attract new people. That will require compromise and inclusiveness, and the absence of exclusivity and class wars. That's the only way we'll prevent becoming a fringe sport. (If we're not one already).
One example of compromise would be two classes racing on the same course. Everyone knows it's much less of a drain on race committees. And yes, there would be boats on the course that you're not racing against that could have minor impact on racing outcomes. But I would argue that if you're good enough to win, you'll win anyway. Small sacrifice for the greater good, in my opinion. | | | Re: F16/F18
[Re: Dlennard]
#220949 10/05/10 09:16 PM 10/05/10 09:16 PM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp OP
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Posts: 5,525 | I did attend the Racine event. However, I'm not really sure it can be said I attended F18 Nationals. We sailed a separate course, with I-20s, and it seemed to me that worked out very well.
By the time the invitation to F16s was issued most of us had used up vacation time. And a number of folks didn't want to be the cause of any unpleasantness so they just stayed away. It should be noted that the F16 class has not been polled on this matter. I suspect there would be a strong sentiment for separation and a number of F16 sailors would not have attended in any case.
Nevertheless, I agree with Daniel, though I believe ours is the minority view.
As for Spring Fever, I started my basic training at Ft. Benning in January. I have no fond memories of Georgia. This is a purely personal decision that I feel no need to defend: if I need a dry suit, I won't sail. And I absolutely despise red clay.
Last edited by pgp; 10/05/10 09:17 PM.
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: F16/F18
[Re: US5352]
#220950 10/05/10 09:20 PM 10/05/10 09:20 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Hi Jake:
Here's the rest of my post from which Pete pulled the quote--
I am among the relatively few teams that have the ability to race both platforms. That being said, however, I would NOT be in favor of moving the F16 event to allow for more convenient attendance at both. I’m encouraged to see something proposed in the spirit of cooperation between the two classes, but I believe such efforts would be better for NA catamaran racing if the outcome truly brings the two classes closer together, rather than maintaining separation. In my opinion, at this point in time, the best thing for the NA cat racing scene would be for the F16’s and F18’s to stage a single Formula Race Week with the two fleets racing on the same course. (Yup, I said it. Go ahead and start the flame throwers). We simply don’t have the critical mass that exists in Europe. Maybe someday we will. Bigger events provide undeniable scale advantages that translate into much greater value for regatta participants and much less financial risk for regatta organizers. If people have that much vacation time to burn on cat sailing, I suspect they’d be far more likely spend it on a Formula and an A, than on two Formulas.
Daniel Hearn F16 #157 F18 #601 A-Cat #180
I'd also suggest that the discussion should be refraimed around the question: how is this good for catamaran racing? Now, more than ever, our sport is competing for people's limited recreational time (and dollars) and the statistics regarding the decline in participation in any type of sailing are frightening. We need to pull together and make it more fun to attract new people. That will require compromise and inclusiveness, and the absence of exclusivity and class wars. That's the only way we'll prevent becoming a fringe sport. (If we're not one already).
One example of compromise would be two classes racing on the same course. Everyone knows it's much less of a drain on race committees. And yes, there would be boats on the course that you're not racing against that could have minor impact on racing outcomes. But I would argue that if you're good enough to win, you'll win anyway. Small sacrifice for the greater good, in my opinion.
I've had a long day at my two jobs and my brain might as well be thrown to a hurricane. I think I like where you're going - but in an effort to simplify it, bullet point it for me. Think of me as an arbitrator. I'm neither for nor against (that's where I really am)... Benefit for catsailing: Benefit for F18: Benefit for F16:
Jake Kohl | | | Re: F16/F18
[Re: Jake]
#220953 10/05/10 09:39 PM 10/05/10 09:39 PM |
Joined: Apr 2002 Posts: 602 Wilmington,NC Dlennard
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Posts: 602 Wilmington,NC | Here are some I thought of
Pro: Lot's of boats racing Good for advertising Bigger party More money for event Lean to sail clinic Cost could be lower for sailor
Con: Not as many races Some sailors would want to sail both events Conflicts on race course Need more space for boats/people/RV's Could dilute each class More staff to run event/food Would confuse people watching if both classes sail the same course
Last edited by Dlennard; 10/05/10 09:47 PM.
| | | Re: F16/F18
[Re: Dlennard]
#220963 10/06/10 02:41 AM 10/06/10 02:41 AM |
Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,669 Melbourne, Australia Tornado_ALIVE
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Posts: 1,669 Melbourne, Australia | Why don't you represent the NA F16 class (don't know if you are a committee member or not) and organise a Formula event inviting the all other formula classes F16, F18, (F20 and F17 even if they are not true F classes)
If you can sell the event as a must do on the calender, then sailors will come. If you can not, then it will be a flop.
You could even create a new mix class event inviting all and stick the F16s and F18s on the same course/start and race first across the line. Once again, if it is appealing to sailors, then they will come. If it does not, they won't
If you have a desire, then organise it. Don't expect others to do it for you. | | | Re: F16/F18
[Re: Tornado_ALIVE]
#220967 10/06/10 06:20 AM 10/06/10 06:20 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | I think the "problem" here is, when you attach the title of "North American Championship" to the regatta, it goes from fun racing to serious racing. I fully understand (and support) fleets wanting their own separate course for a true North American Championship, free of contaminated air from those -other- boats, what ever they might be.
Now, to the point of a Hobie Megga type regatta, for Formula boats, that would be fun, just don't call it the NA's. There are some who race in both F16 and F18, if you combine the regatta, they won't be able to do both, obviously, so one of those classes is going to lose a few boats. If we want maximum turnout, we could have a week long regatta for F boats, but race F16's for 2-3 days, then F18's for the next 2-3 days. The teams who do both can then do both, in the same location, and have a race course that is clear of those -other- boats. The rest of us can show up, race our 2-3 days and go home, or stick around for more party fun or as Pete mentioned, do some sight seeing in the local area, what ever that might be.
Blade F16 #777
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