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Wind limits #221494
10/12/10 08:33 AM
10/12/10 08:33 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 186
Chattanooga, TN
jody Offline OP
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I was just reading JCs write up on the Canadian F18 regatta and started thinking about sailing in heavy air. The last GC and national were both in upper winds. I was wondering what the thought of the US group might be on setting some wind limits for our regattas. There are a lot of reasons for this in my mind. The price of replacing boats, parts, and such is on reason. I mean the Americas cup boats with what seems like unlimited funds have wind limits to try and conserve the boat and gear. Another reason is I truely believe having sailed a lot in both configurations that in the heavier air it is really an unfair advnatage to the double handed teams. I know the first 2 GCs had a lot of wind and were won by very skilled single handed sailors but as the 2 handed teams have learned the boats better I do not see this happening again. We want the setups to be as equal as possible. In this regard there should probably be a minimum wind so the lighter single handed boats do not have the distinct advnatage.
There are more reasons but these are 2 big ones. I would propose a class rule for large class events that wind limits of maybe 3 knots to 20 knots sustained anywhere on the course be set. That is a large range and will rarley interfer with the racing.
So what do the rest of you think?


Jody Blade F16 724 Plays with Sharp Objects
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Re: Wind limits [Re: jody] #221495
10/12/10 08:39 AM
10/12/10 08:39 AM
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pgp Offline
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I think most PROs will postpone if wind is less that 6mph. Maybe?

As for upper wind,sailing Uni, I won't leave the beach if over 15mph. It's pointless, I can keep the boat upright but that's all.

I've no objection to class rules, but I won't take it to the board. Let's see some real Democracy in action here!!! laugh


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Wind limits [Re: jody] #221497
10/12/10 08:51 AM
10/12/10 08:51 AM
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MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
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Originally Posted by jody
I was just reading JCs write up on the Canadian F18 regatta and started thinking about sailing in heavy air. The last GC and national were both in upper winds. I was wondering what the thought of the US group might be on setting some wind limits for our regattas. There are a lot of reasons for this in my mind. The price of replacing boats, parts, and such is on reason. I mean the Americas cup boats with what seems like unlimited funds have wind limits to try and conserve the boat and gear. Another reason is I truely believe having sailed a lot in both configurations that in the heavier air it is really an unfair advnatage to the double handed teams. I know the first 2 GCs had a lot of wind and were won by very skilled single handed sailors but as the 2 handed teams have learned the boats better I do not see this happening again. We want the setups to be as equal as possible. In this regard there should probably be a minimum wind so the lighter single handed boats do not have the distinct advnatage.
There are more reasons but these are 2 big ones. I would propose a class rule for large class events that wind limits of maybe 3 knots to 20 knots sustained anywhere on the course be set. That is a large range and will rarley interfer with the racing.
So what do the rest of you think?


This opens up a can of worms. I am definitely in favor of condition limits in some sort as it does no one any good to go out and attempt to race in survival conditions. The problem remains on how and when that gets defined.

20 knots steady if flat water is some dream conditions for many. 15 in some short steep waves can be almost unsailable for many as well. The bigger issue as to defining sailable conditions is the presence of gusts. 10 knots sustained with gusts coming through at 30 and or combined with 30 degree shifts really ups the challenge factor. In my experience it is the ability to handle changing conditions (and crowded situations) that really separates the 1 from the 2 up.

I believe there is already some wording about the discretion of the race committee. This to me is about the only workable solution. Given waves, gusts and the steadiness of the wind it is too difficult to define an acceptable written range window for competition. The committee should be able to evaluate those conditions and compare it to the level of the event. At a high level event like a Nationals or a GC the competitors should be capable of a much wider range of conditions.

Re: Wind limits [Re: Matt M] #221501
10/12/10 10:11 AM
10/12/10 10:11 AM
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Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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I think part of this sport is attrition, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Singlehanded I start falling apart at the lower mid teens for wind speed, (knots). Two up I can handle a lot more.

Its up to every sailor to determine what their limits are, and that shouldn't change. There's plenty of conditions where I have just gone, "nope, I ain't doin' it". Sure I lost some positions, but that's how it goes.


I'm boatless.
Re: Wind limits [Re: Karl_Brogger] #221511
10/12/10 11:26 AM
10/12/10 11:26 AM
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maritimesailor Offline
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I think the Tornado class has some specific wind limits. But I agree, this opens a can of worms and I generally think it is left to the PRO to make the call. If they consistently make the wrong calls, then they are out of a job, sort of self regulating.

As for safety, at the Canadian Nats, the PRO did a great job, day one he canned it when half the fleet was no longer sailing, and the second day he didn't push us too much given the conditions (although at a national event, I would push a bit harder). Personally I would have liked to have raced once more each day, but I also understand that with cats, and tipped cats, the RC's "on the water resources" get used up fast making it unsafe to run a regatta.

Now, racing in under 5knots, which rarely (RARELY) is steady... that is something I personally hate....

If anything, you need to get very specific with writing wind / condition limits into class rule. One of my favourite rules was (I think) in the Tornado class was the max number of races per day (3 or 4, can't remember), which goes a long way to ensure safety as crews wear out (not that I'm a crew or anything).

Did I mention I'm part of that Prentice and LaRoche crew JC mentions in his write up... so perhaps I'm biased against light air ;-)

Sum up; fun discusion, look at the Tornado class for an example of the right way to do it.

Re: Wind limits [Re: Karl_Brogger] #221529
10/12/10 07:19 PM
10/12/10 07:19 PM
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Michigan
PTP Offline
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yeah. I think it should be up to the PRO. Seems to make the most sense.

Re: Wind limits [Re: PTP] #221538
10/13/10 05:14 AM
10/13/10 05:14 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Tornado Class Rules
Quote
11.4. No race shall be started if the wind is less than 6 knots or more than 25 knots
at any time between the warning signal and the starting signal.
11.5. A race shall be abandoned if the wind is continuously below 3 knots for any 15
minute period before the first boat that sails the course finishes.


Re: Wind limits [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #221539
10/13/10 05:34 AM
10/13/10 05:34 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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Quote
Proposed F16 Class Championship Rules
H.10. TIME AND WIND LIMITS

a. A race shall be abandoned if no boat has finished within 1.5 hours. Boats failing to finish within 30 minutes after the first boat shall be deemed not to have finished and shall be scored as DNF.
b. Races may be abandoned if the Race Officer determines that fair sailing has been compromised and shall be abandoned if security and safety is no longer guaranteed.
c. No races shall be started or continued if the average wind (measured over the previous 15 minutes at any mark of the course) is less than 4 knots or more than 22 knots. The Race Committee shall also take into account weather forecasts, wind gusts and wave condition to ensure safe sailing conditions.


This extract is from the current version of the Draft F16 Championship Rules for use in major F16 Class Events. Pending the outcome of the ISAF November Meeting, this rule set and other sundry items will be placed before the membership for consideration, discussion and voting.


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: Wind limits [Re: Jalani] #221541
10/13/10 06:40 AM
10/13/10 06:40 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
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Brisveagas
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22 kts!!!!! Meeeeow. Come on.....25 kts is great fun.


Aido
Viper 288
Re: Wind limits [Re: Aido] #221542
10/13/10 06:51 AM
10/13/10 06:51 AM
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+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
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Do the rules specify how you are to enforce a rule like that?
Seems near impossible to me, have someone sit behind an anemometer all day and call of the race as soon if it averages either 4 or 22 knots?
Most wind instruments dont even have an average 15min windspeed mode.

IMHO 22kts is still very doable when racing, especially for heavier crews.

Re: Wind limits [Re: Tony_F18] #221544
10/13/10 07:08 AM
10/13/10 07:08 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 186
Chattanooga, TN
jody Offline OP
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Your right the heavier crews do well in that stuff, but once again the single handed guys are greatly hindered in that wind. I bleieve those rules are similar to the A cat rules and make a lot of sense. It gives the PRO something to go by if the conditions are iffy. If the tornados have a rule for upper wind and those are 20 foot long 10 feet wide boats with some of the best sailors in the world, should we not take heed and follow somwewhat adjusting for the difference in boats.


Jody Blade F16 724 Plays with Sharp Objects
Re: Wind limits [Re: jody] #221547
10/13/10 07:40 AM
10/13/10 07:40 AM
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pgp Offline
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F16 under spin in 25 knots. I doubt if there are six crews in the WORLD that could handle that much wind, and stay on course.

There may be a lot crews that could go blasting off down wind, but: round a mark, set the chute, drive to a gate, retrieve the chute and head back up wind. I gotta see it...


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Wind limits [Re: pgp] #221553
10/13/10 08:30 AM
10/13/10 08:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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The rationale behind the upper limit of 22 knots was arrived at on the basis that, in the opimion of the Council, unirig sailors would be in non-racing survival mode around that point with two handed boats only just about able to race.
ergo; anything higher and noone is racing anymore - they're just trying to get round!
As said above, it's a draft, it's open for discussion prior to alteration or otherwise and adoption.


John Alani
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Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: Wind limits [Re: pgp] #221554
10/13/10 08:35 AM
10/13/10 08:35 AM
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Have done it, no problem, we are arguably a "overweight" team though, and I'm not sure the mast really liked what we were doing to it wink

Double handed, 25 knots flat water is very doable, and a lot of fun. Add in heavy seas / lake waves, not as much fun.

I'm more for a limit to how many races a day, as it minimizes the time on the water in heavy air (also limits the damage that can be done to one score in conditions that are not suited to you). IMO the biggest safety concern is when you race too many races in big breeze. One is fine, but as you start wearing down the strength of the crew, things go tits up fast.

22 seems low for double handed, but understanding the fleet allows single handed, I see why it is chosen.

Originally Posted by pgp
F16 under spin in 25 knots. I doubt if there are six crews in the WORLD that could handle that much wind, and stay on course.

There may be a lot crews that could go blasting off down wind, but: round a mark, set the chute, drive to a gate, retrieve the chute and head back up wind. I gotta see it...

Re: Wind limits [Re: maritimesailor] #221556
10/13/10 09:04 AM
10/13/10 09:04 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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I love big wind, but that said, I can't afford to buy new stuff (mast, boards, sails, etc.) after I crash in big wind and if it wipes out the rest of my regatta, I'm screwed, so just for costs' sake I would not mind seeing some upper wind limits, and lower limits too, for that matter, I -hate- light air! 5 knots minimum, or let's go drinking!


Blade F16
#777
Re: Wind limits [Re: maritimesailor] #221557
10/13/10 09:07 AM
10/13/10 09:07 AM
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FL
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I traveled six hours to a regatta, and it was blowing 14-19 but the Sea State was 4 to 8,
and the RC canceled the day because the RC did not feel like bobbing like a cork all day.
Another time the RC could not get of of the Cut due to Sea State.
Please choose your RC wisely. (At least the RC was candid about it)

On another tack, a complimentary jet-ski would be nice to get thru the surf safely.
There is a huge difference between 22 on a lake, and 22 in the ocean?
ie. lakes tend to higher gusts, and ocean higher waves

Re: Wind limits [Re: Jalani] #221566
10/13/10 10:25 AM
10/13/10 10:25 AM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
Races may be abandoned if the Race Officer determines that fair sailing has been compromised and shall be abandoned if security and safety is no longer guaranteed.


Wow.... you have a PRO who will do this...
"guarantee safety"???

Do your mark boats know that they are now safety boats... who are guaranteed to bail your butt out of your personal crisis! Hope they brought their wet suits and are up to date on safety training.

Do your Host YC's know that you are promising the sailors that the YC will deliver a level of safety unmatched in the USA?

Talk about shifting the onus from the captain to everyone else!

You need to think this through considering the consequences AFTER the disaster. If somebody gets in deep trouble in 15knots.... Does that mean the class rules are defacto set at 15?!


You Brits have a set of guidelines and standards... Not so in the USA.

PRO's want guidance from the Class members and leadership... (hopefully they are on the same page) FAR more then they want hard rules to follow.

The hard and fast rules usually follow a bad experience between the class and the host club and their PRO.

The Tornado rules are hard and fast because they were in a continual battle with ISAF and the host MNA's... When you are the red headed step child... you get screwed at almost every turn. The T class championship rules were written to protect the members as best as they could.

What they really want is a PRO and OA who serves the sailors best interest fairly and impartially.

They aim's to please.... so if you don't want to race more then X a day or wind and sea state of x, say so and let them manage the game... As a competitor, you can't have any real power during the event anyway, ... your point of view is biased. Likewise... you can't put the racing on autopilot and expect a uniform result.

Guidelines... not rules are a better policy.... Another good idea is to grow your PRO's with your class.... The chances of misunderstanding diminish a lot...



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Wind limits [Re: Mark Schneider] #221581
10/13/10 02:53 PM
10/13/10 02:53 PM
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Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
Races may be abandoned if the Race Officer determines that fair sailing has been compromised and shall be abandoned if security and safety is no longer guaranteed.


Wow.... you have a PRO who will do this...
"guarantee safety"???


A better choice of words should be used but I think you can read between the lines of the intent.

As we always say, ultimately it is the skipper's call on whether to race or not. Last year's Alter Cup Area "C" Qualifier started with sustained winds of 20-22, +3' seas, rain, and temps in the 40s. Of 21 entries, 5 dared and competed on day 1.


Kris Hathaway
Re: Wind limits [Re: Kris Hathaway] #221584
10/13/10 04:12 PM
10/13/10 04:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Kris

Quote
Last year's Alter Cup Area "C" Qualifier started with sustained winds of 20-22, +3' seas, rain, and temps in the 40s. Of 21 entries, 5 dared and competed on day 1.



Quote
Ultimately the skippers call
... I would say wrong word... try ONLY the skippers call. His decision can't be contingent on anything else.

I'm not sure I understand... Are you suggesting rules should have been written down and in place before this event?

Perhaps 50% of the registrants choose to race... means no cancel???

It can't work that way because it's just unfair to the teams who prep for that stuff! The PRO is there to judge the conditions for conducting a fair race. His safety concern is for his RC boat and crew and his mark boats and crew.

Last year his judgment was spot on.

If you want a wind speed max because you want to maintain the pretense that single handers and double handers are the same class around the buoys then you should just leave it as... "No races will be started in xx minute average wind speeds over 22 knots".

Say no more... certainly nothing about safety...

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 10/13/10 04:43 PM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Wind limits [Re: Mark Schneider] #221603
10/13/10 09:48 PM
10/13/10 09:48 PM
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Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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PIA. According to Webster's, "Ultimately" means "...in the end". Has nothing to do with "contingent". Glad you are not my lawyer.

Last year's "C" Qualifier was an example of skippers exercising their judgement on whether to race. I said nothing relative second guessing the PRO or if there should have been wind rules. I certainly was not soliciting your opinion regarding if it should have been called because it is wrong to second guess the PRO. Period.


Kris Hathaway
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