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Advice on fixing a nearly chopped Supercat 15 bow #221969
10/18/10 09:05 PM
10/18/10 09:05 PM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline OP
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Yesterday I pitchpoled the Boston Whaler SuperCat 15 I recently restored in exchange for its use.

It was blowing around 30 knots and we were fighting for the lead ahead of bigger cats, but it wouldn't be worth mentioning here if the mast base wouldn't brake its "neck" and, more important, the inside of the bow side near the mainbeam wouldn't crack open.

I guess the two damages are related. The loosened mast base may have hit the side of the bow and caused the crack, but I don't know for sure, all I could see was water smile

Anyway, the bow damage extended further when the boat was slowly towed to shore upside down and backwards, with the severed bow slightly up to keep it from flooding or breaking too fast. The wind was getting stronger, so it wasn't an easy task.

In the end the bow was nearly separated from the rest of the float at about 5 to 10 inches forward of the main beam. I need advice and suggestions to fix this.

The repairs will be done by a local shipyard that mostly builds motor boats and canoes. They know even less than I do about light cats - and I certainly don't know enough, at least not for a breakage of this magnitude.

Thanks for helping.


Luiz
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Advice on fixing a nearly chopped Supercat 15 bow [Re: Luiz] #221976
10/18/10 10:38 PM
10/18/10 10:38 PM
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Palm Beach County
TheManShed Offline
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Wow another one. A supercat 20 broke up with similar damage off of Palm Beach. It was a total loss after spending a night adrift then beaching. Foam / fiberglass construction is a bit tricky to fix if they are not use to it. Did it break forward of the bulkhead? Pictures?


Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
TMS-20 Builder
G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's

Re: Advice on fixing a nearly chopped Supercat 15 bow [Re: TheManShed] #221982
10/18/10 11:46 PM
10/18/10 11:46 PM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline OP
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Originally Posted by TheManShed
A supercat 20 broke up with similar damage off of Palm Beach. It was a total loss...
Did it brsdeak forward of the bulkhead? Pictures?


Our's didn't sink because we were just one mile away, it took about an hour to tow it to shore.

From memory the crack is 5 to 10 inches forward of the main beam. I never saw the inside of a Supercat, didn't look inside the crack and don't know if the SC15 has a bulkhead. Do you know where it is supposed to be?

When I find time to tow the boat to the shipyard, I'll bring a lantern and camera to search for the bulkhead and take the necessary pictures. Yesterday I only had time to disassemble the boat for transport before it was dark, no time to take pictures, even if I had a camera with me.




Luiz
Re: Advice on fixing a nearly chopped Supercat 15 bow [Re: Luiz] #221985
10/19/10 02:18 AM
10/19/10 02:18 AM
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japan
erice Offline
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ouch! there are a few pics about of snapped off supercats bows, maybe they can be dug up here?


eric e
1982 nacra 5.2 - 2158
2009 weta tri - 294
Re: Advice on fixing a nearly chopped Supercat 15 bow [Re: Luiz] #222005
10/19/10 08:14 AM
10/19/10 08:14 AM
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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In the SC 20, the bulkheads are under the main beam and under the rear beam. If where the bulkheads are glued to the hull crack, it could cause the front of the boat to weaken.

From your first post, the weakend front bow is not the problem. It just sounds like the mast took it out after the base snapped off.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
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Re: Advice on fixing a nearly chopped Supercat 15 bow [Re: cyberspeed] #222010
10/19/10 09:13 AM
10/19/10 09:13 AM
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Near SLC, Utah
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Near SLC, Utah
You may wish to contact Tom Haberman at Aquarius Sails.

E-Mail: info@aquarius-sail.com or sales@aquarius-sail.com

Telephone: 651-462-SAIL (7245)

FAX: 651-462-7245


For years, they used to sell, sail and maintain these boats.

If memory serves me, they may have even been heavily involved in the design and manufacturing of them, or they were closely associated.

Great folks and they have treated me very well over the years with information, parts, advise and suggestions.

It would be worth the call or email.

If you find out anything, let us know.

What you find out may help when something goes wrong with some of these other Supercats, that are still on the water.

If you call, say hello to Tom from Tom House in Utah.

I am continuing to sail the sox off my supercat 17 and my 474 Freestyle (15 footer).

Boy have I had fun with that Suercat 17 on lakes and during coastal adventures around southern California and Catalina Island.

Is life good or what....

Re: Advice on fixing a nearly chopped Supercat 15 bow [Re: tomthouse] #222019
10/19/10 09:47 AM
10/19/10 09:47 AM
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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Aquarius Sails still supports the Supercats line. Tom would be a great person to contact. They will also have any of the parts if you need them.

I think a contributing factor with the SC 20 that TMS was talking about was the boat was moored on the water for a few years at the least, could be some sort of water saturation. I almost bought that boat. Glad he renigged on my origional offer.

Also did not help that they took it out in a Topical Storm watch.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Endurance Series
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Re: Advice on fixing a nearly chopped Supercat 15 bow [Re: cyberspeed] #222033
10/19/10 11:10 AM
10/19/10 11:10 AM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline OP
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If there's a bulkhead under the mainbeam, I believe the breakage is located close to where the glass reinforcements keeping the forward bulkhead in place end, the most likely place for such a rupture.

If I was in the US I would simply send the hull to Aquarius Sail to be fixed, but we are on the other hemisphere, many thousands of miles away... it is good advice, though, so after I take the pictures I'll write to Tom Haberman and/or Bill Roberts to see if they can help.

All the best,
Luiz


Luiz
Re: Advice on fixing a nearly chopped Supercat 15 bow [Re: Luiz] #222388
10/23/10 11:56 AM
10/23/10 11:56 AM
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Palm Beach County
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Usually there is some type of bulkhead / support under the main beams to transfer the loads from the beam / rig to the hulls. If you want to see inside the hull of the SuperCat take a look here http://themanshed.net/archived-projects/supercat-20/?g2_page=1 This is taken in my shop.
Back in the day I use to go to Bill's shop and see what he was working on when he was still building the boats and molds in Palm Beach County. Basically anything can be fixed but you have weigh the cost vs the price vs the time. If you have the time, skill or the willing to learn, and place to work on it is not too bad of a job. Although repair work is not as easy as an experienced person makes it look. I enjoy it but Ive also restored old cars in the past and find it a way to spend some time when not sailing.
The other option is if you are paying somebody to do the work keep in mind time vs work = profit. Make sure they do it correctly and not just make it look pretty. It may be cheaper to replace the hull with a used hull. Like cyberspeed says did the mast take it out or failure of the hull? Make sure you check the other hull out before you go back on the water.
Good Luck!


Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
TMS-20 Builder
G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's

Re: Advice on fixing a nearly chopped Supercat 15 bow [Re: cyberspeed] #222391
10/23/10 12:04 PM
10/23/10 12:04 PM
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Palm Beach County
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Originally Posted by cyberspeed
I almost bought that boat. Glad he renigged on my origional offer.


So am I my shop is already getting full! cool


Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
TMS-20 Builder
G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's

Re: Advice on fixing a nearly chopped Supercat 15 bow [Re: TheManShed] #222408
10/23/10 10:30 PM
10/23/10 10:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline OP
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Originally Posted by TheManShed
Usually there is some type of bulkhead / support under the main beams to transfer the loads from the beam / rig to the hulls. If you want to see inside the hull of the SuperCat take a look here http://themanshed.net/archived-projects/supercat-20/?g2_page=1 This is taken in my shop.
Back in the day I use to go to Bill's shop and see what he was working on when he was still building the boats and molds in Palm Beach County. Basically anything can be fixed but you have weigh the cost vs the price vs the time. If you have the time, skill or the willing to learn, and place to work on it is not too bad of a job. Although repair work is not as easy as an experienced person makes it look. I enjoy it but Ive also restored old cars in the past and find it a way to spend some time when not sailing.
The other option is if you are paying somebody to do the work keep in mind time vs work = profit. Make sure they do it correctly and not just make it look pretty. It may be cheaper to replace the hull with a used hull. Like cyberspeed says did the mast take it out or failure of the hull? Make sure you check the other hull out before you go back on the water.
Good Luck!


Thanks Mike,

I can certainly see the inside of the SC15 hull now... This Sunday I'll tow it to the shipyard and take some pictures to post here.

That hull was leaking since the boat was painted and we never found where the leak was. It may have been structural, as you said. The other hull is 100% watertight and seems to be solid. I can't check its inside without opening a hole, though.

I am not skilled enough to repair this by myself, but the guys at the shipyard aren't that bad. My concern is their lack of experience with foam sandwich and what technique is best. I guess it is better to discuss this with the pictures.

Meanwhile, I already had the mast base welded and made a new tiller crossbar.

Cheers!


Luiz
Re: Advice on fixing a nearly chopped Supercat 15 bow [Re: TheManShed] #222424
10/24/10 07:41 AM
10/24/10 07:41 AM
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Would it not be easier to try and locate a used hull?

Re: Advice on fixing a nearly chopped Supercat 15 bow [Re: Hullflyer1] #222426
10/24/10 08:21 AM
10/24/10 08:21 AM
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42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline
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I've seen several boats of different manufacturers become weak and begin to fail just ahead of the main beam.

I think it comes from years of the loads just ahead of the main beam, flying ah hull. Then, a semi violent pitchpole adds even more stress to the area just ahead of the main beam.

My Prindle 18-2 began to fail just ahead of the main beam as well. I've seen others.

Good luck, sounds like you'll get it fixed just fine.


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: Advice on fixing a nearly chopped Supercat 15 bow [Re: Hullflyer1] #222451
10/24/10 06:55 PM
10/24/10 06:55 PM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Hullflyer1
Would it not be easier to try and locate a used hull?


Yes it would and that's what I'd do if I was in the US.
All six SC15 in the country are in very decent shape, racing as a one design class. Only one wasn't at the race when I pitchpoled.


Luiz
Advice on fixing a nearly chopped SC15 bow - PICTURES [Re: Todd_Sails] #222452
10/24/10 07:26 PM
10/24/10 07:26 PM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline OP
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This week I had the mast foot welded (about USD 30), sewn and taped the batten pocket, made a replacement tiller cross arm and replaced the broken battens with their spares.

Today I trailed the SC15 to the shipyard, together with two Lasers from the sailing school that also need repairs.

The shipyard owner is considering four alternatives:

a) Open the entire hull longitudinally, fix each side and glue them back. This allows the entire hull to be inspected and fixed, but is time consuming (expensive) and probably adds weight.

b) Open longitudinally from the bow to the crowwbeam and chop off the inside half only. With good access to both sides of the bow, it can be properly fixed and glued back in place with minimal extra weight. This is simpler and faster, but we can't inspect the entire hull.

c) Take molds of the damaged part (or the entire bow) from the other hull and laminate a new section to glue in place. This seems complicated and we can't inspect the entire hull.

d) Take moulds from the other hull and make a new hull. This is expensive and requires permission from the designer, but would yield the best result - at the highest cost.

What do you think?

Thanks!

Attached Files
P1080311.jpg (245 downloads)
P1080314.jpg (246 downloads)
P1080315.jpg (246 downloads)

Luiz
Re: Advice on fixing a nearly chopped SC15 bow - PICTURES [Re: Luiz] #222457
10/24/10 08:44 PM
10/24/10 08:44 PM
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Penfield NY
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The Best way to fix this boat if you plan on racing it is to locate another hull. Every other way will add weight.
The way I would fix it is to cut a large (six inch wide by length of the top crack ) hole in the top of the hull.
debur the crack from the inside so that the forward portion lines up correctly, and any questionable core is cleared out. Take a high build fiberglass mat (I like the multi layered one with the spheres in it) soaked in epoxy and line the inside of the hull as far back and as far forward as you can reach.
then do a normal hole repair for the top.
Lots of professional repair advice on Boatdesign.net

Rob

Re: Advice on fixing a nearly chopped SC15 bow - PICTURES [Re: rturbett] #222491
10/25/10 08:26 AM
10/25/10 08:26 AM
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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Did the hull bend inward or is it just cracked. Looks like the mast just came down on it and cracked it which is better than the bow bending in.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Endurance Series
www.SailSeries.com
Re: Advice on fixing a nearly chopped SC15 bow - PICTURES [Re: rturbett] #222494
10/25/10 08:36 AM
10/25/10 08:36 AM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline OP
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Originally Posted by rturbett
The Best way to fix this boat if you plan on racing it is to locate another hull. Every other way will add weight.
The way I would fix it is to cut a large (six inch wide by length of the top crack ) hole in the top of the hull.
debur the crack from the inside so that the forward portion lines up correctly, and any questionable core is cleared out. Take a high build fiberglass mat (I like the multi layered one with the spheres in it) soaked in epoxy and line the inside of the hull as far back and as far forward as you can reach.
then do a normal hole repair for the top.
Lots of professional repair advice on Boatdesign.net

Rob


A simple and practical solution, thanks!

Extra weight, however undesirable, is not a major concern. All the SC15s are old, therefore overweight due to repairs. Added weight will keep it within the one design parameters.

Besides, the skippers here can save a lot more weight with a diet than optimizing repairs... their average weight is around 100 kg / 220 lb! (my weight!)


Luiz
Re: SC15 bow - PICTURES BEFORE RECOATING [Re: Luiz] #222570
10/25/10 03:50 PM
10/25/10 03:50 PM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline OP
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Reviewing old pictures taken before the recent gelcoat remake, I found indications that the bow failed due to pre-existing delamination problems.




Attached Files
upsidedown bow.jpg (204 downloads)
Upside down hull with a line showing delamination or something similar.
probable delamination.jpg (204 downloads)
Detail of upside down float with bump, probably caused by glass detaching from foam.

Luiz
Re: SC15 bow - PICTURES BEFORE RECOATING [Re: Luiz] #222634
10/26/10 12:53 AM
10/26/10 12:53 AM
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Palm Beach County
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Looks like it was coming apart before the crack by the buckle in the hull. Id take a jig saw and cut away the bad glass plus about 5 on each side in a rectangle shape. On the other hull, the good one in the same location prepare the hull with duct tape then wax to use as a mold. The hulls are pretty much symmetrical so the patch from the outside of the good hull will be for the inside of the bad hull.so forth. I would also use Epoxy and not poly resin. I dont recommend mat - no strength, use a biax and make one or two lay-up patch with about 4 larger than the damaged area. This will be your patch panel. Id make 2 or 3 pieces that is a port , starboard, and deck patch.. Make one patch panel for each side and one for the deck. They will bend some so you can fit them inside the hull. Scuff the inside of the hull to get a good clean bite. Make sure all the wax is removed from the molding process. Clamp the panels in place and let dry. Also inspect the inside of the hull for any other damage before you seal it up and make sure bulkheads are attached to the hull. The seam is splitting to it needs to be ground smooth, filled and glassed over from the inside, and outside Taper the outside of the repair area then you can glue in foam or make a solid patch, and put your outside skin and finish. . West system has a short video on the repair of foam/fiberglass that covers the basics http://www.westsystem.info/wesyephodvd.html . I have some pictures of similar repair not as big and I used the cut out piece but the same idea http://themanshed.net/archived-projects/g-cat-catamaran/?g2_page=2 and http://themanshed.net/archived-projects/g-cat-catamaran/?g2_page=3
On the Supercat 20 I had to make a piece for the deck where a funky wood top patch was made. I made a temp mold of the other port hole and deck area, had to spin it 180 and correct the angle. http://themanshed.net/archived-projects/supercat-20.html Since you are close to the bulkhead make sure you do not cut into it and you can tie your patch into the bulkhead to make it stronger. Back then I used bondo type products for faring and have since removed all of it. Do not use plastic fillers they asorb water, it is best to make an epoxy paste with a filler it is a little harder to sand but much better.

I would not use the old piece of the SuperCat15 since it was failing and check out the skins around the cut-out to make sure it is sound.

It is getting late I worked too late in my shop so I need to turn in if you would like more detail you can contact me directly.

Last edited by TheManShed; 10/26/10 01:15 AM.

Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
TMS-20 Builder
G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's

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