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PFD usage....blah, blah!!! #22194
07/15/03 04:03 PM
07/15/03 04:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 5
jdr Offline OP
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jdr  Offline OP
stranger

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 5
There is one thing that cannot be enforced by law. COMMON SENSE! Which brings me to PFD usage.
I grew up on the water and as a kid I can never remember wearing a PFD except when it was real stormy or I was water skiing (BTW I remember when we all got mad when the USCG didnt approve ski belts) There was no discussion of proper usage in our household only that the USCG required them.
When I was a teenager and was introduced to cat sailing nobody wore one, yes they were on board usually tied to a boom or hiking strap. When we capsized or got separated from the boat we swam to it, righted, and took off again. Not once did we say: "You know it might be a good idea to put these on!"
Fast forward to 1991. I buy a cat after after some 7 years hiatus from sailing. Our first ride with my wife I did what I remembered we always done. I tied the PFD's to the hiking strap. Trying to get back to shore during a t-storm that day the hiking strap came loose during a jibe and there went my PFD's. No way was I going to go back and retrieve them! But it was the scariest ride to the beach I ever had!
That's when common sense crapped on my head! What the hell was I thinking? What if my wife fell overboard? Would I be good enough to sail back to her? What if god forbid I fell off?
She doesn't know how to sail! We are good swimmers but not that good! It was a moment of clarity. I was an idiot! If my wife was to die of my lack of common sense I think I would kill myself. If I was to die it would be devastating to her. We made it back OK. I vowed never to leave the beach without my PFD ON ME AND MY CREW!
Two months later while sailing in high winds I fell off. My crew capsized trying to get back to me. I couldn't swim to him, damn that boat is fast on its side! I had my PFD on and thank god. It took 3 hours before helped arrived and plucked me from the water. While floating for three hours in 3 foot chop I wasnt worried. I was calm and peaceful, I knew help would eventually arrive. I didnt have to worry about, "Can I swim to shore?","How much longer can I tread water?" All the griping I did about how uncomfortable they are, decreased mobility, etc. etc. seemed very stupid while I was floating by myself. You will never hear me bitch about PFD's again.
Which brings me to the mandatory PFD usage. While I still see quite a number of sailors still wearing nothing I don't think a law will help. It is going to take a moment of common sense to rain on them and give them some clarity. I just hope they get lucky when it happens like I did.
Or hopefully a mild horror story will help :-)

JDR

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: PFD usage....blah, blah!!! [Re: jdr] #22195
07/15/03 07:03 PM
07/15/03 07:03 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Tornado  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
I hear ya man!

I met a TheMightyHobie18 sailor at the dock the other day. Has was wearing a nylon windsuit and a pair of walkman headphones with a wire running into the front zip pocket. He had just climbed out of hte water and onto the dock and was completely soaked, walkman no doubt toast. Anyway, I got to chatting with him. He mentions he doesn't go out more than a few miles from the coast (this is Southern CA) unless he with other boats. Cool. He didn't have Trapeze wires setup 'cuz he was afraid of falling off, and the fact he had the Hobie super seats installed. He also ranted on about how a hobie owner had washed onto a nearby beach some years ago after falling off. So he gave me the impression of being a safety minded type. I showed him my submersible marine radio that I clip to my lifejacket...where I go it goes. He looks at his suit and says he's got no where to attach it to...I ask what kind of lifejacket he uses "Oh, I don't use them...I was a lifeguard and can swim ashore". That windsuit would be very difficult to swim in I'm sure.

I told him we'd be finding him washed up one day. End of discussion.

The mind just boggles...


Last edited by Tornado; 07/15/03 07:04 PM.

Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Add a knife to your gear!!!! [Re: jdr] #22196
07/16/03 12:43 AM
07/16/03 12:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 283
hobie541 Offline
enthusiast
hobie541  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 283
I once capsized and had my harness hook grab the hiking strap, and pull the boat on top of me. I couldn't get out of my harness. Luckily the mast was taller than the water was deep, so I could keep my head above water. The very next day, I bought a Gerber River Guide knife that I keep in a holster on my harness. I think it's every bit as important as a pfd.

Tim


Tim D. Johnson Hobie 20 #690 Bald Eagle Yacht Club, Fleet 52 www.beyc.org
Re: PFD usage....blah, blah!!! [Re: jdr] #22197
07/16/03 08:56 AM
07/16/03 08:56 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Houston
carlbohannon Offline
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carlbohannon  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Houston
I am on the hook, at work, to give a safety tip. I've been dodging it for years because I had not found anything I really wanted to give. I recently found something

If you remember back, a charter boat on a father-son trip on Father's Day rolled leaving the harbor in Oregan. 11 people were killed.

"Investigators' most definite conclusion about the capsizing at the mouth of Tillamook Bay was the importance of life jackets. The boat's orange vests were worn by all the survivors and none of those found dead. " (from CNN)


Re: PFD usage....blah, blah!!! [Re: jdr] #22198
07/16/03 09:45 AM
07/16/03 09:45 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 277
Baton Rouge, LA
Dean Offline
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Dean  Offline
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Posts: 277
Baton Rouge, LA
Near Perdido (almost Pensacola) this past June a doctor, well-experienced and intelligent boater, disappeared while fishing near the shoreline. His boat was found bumping a bridge piling. Doc was not on board. Body wasn't found. I didn't follow the story for long but I could not help but suspect that he fell over and bumped his head in the fall while not wearing a PFD. Easy to do on one of those fishing boats with a flat deck and no lifelines to get in the way of the fishing.

In the old days (70's-80's) I wore my PFD on my cat when the weather turned sour. Now, I wear it ALL the time for a couple of reasons: (1) my crew cannot sail the boat well enough if something were to happen to me, and (2) things can happen during a tipsy accident that can incapacitate the sailors. The PFD can trap a sailor in a bad place but I'm putting my bet on the thing providing some floatation when my body needs it.

I don't like wearing my PFD because it IS restricting but, just this past weekend I had enough water and wind in the Gulf (Bunces Pass near Tampa) that made me seriously wonder if I could make it back to the pass before the boat pitchpoled.

Perfect days can quickly deteriorate to a point where even a watchful skipper has his hands full and can place the happy sailors in jeapardy if heavy boat parts collide with soft flesh or if all the string ensnares limbs and torsos during a tipover of some sort. Being a good swimmer does not help when the swimmer is knocked silly, becomes tangled in the rigging, or becomes hypothermic.

My VHF, strobe, whistle, and knife are clipped to my PFD. I have a multi-tool strapped to my belt. I don't like wearing all this equipment but I'm still sailing at 54 and plan to be around to tell more tales about the rough times I went through when I was damn glad we were wearing the PFD's with signaling devices clipped to them. I've never had to be rescued from a really bad situation but it doesn't take but one bad spill to change your luck. This past Sunday was kind of a pain that could have grown into a safety nightmare and expensive dilemma. Only on perfect days with a lazy wind and relatively flat water do we bother to relieve ourselves of the bulky PFD/s and even then I keep all the safety things tied onto the boat and well within reach.

My advice is to wear the PFD more often than not and to have some safety equipment on board.


Last edited by Dean; 07/16/03 09:46 AM.
Re: PFD usage....blah, blah!!! [Re: Dean] #22199
07/16/03 06:56 PM
07/16/03 06:56 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 20
Nacra546 Offline
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Nacra546  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 20
I have been racing big boats on Lake Michigan for 10 years. This last weekend was the 1st time I had ever been on a boat with a bolt cutters. I thought to my self for a minute, "why?" but then it became glaringly obvious. Steel halyards and stays don't cut well with a rigging knife. Also, in a fatal moment of dismasting it would certainly expidite the removal of the wreckage so that the boat could return to port under engine power.

This got me to thinking, would it be prudent to carry a smaller wire cutters on board? Something that would cut thru the heaviest of rigging on a cat. I wonder if the Worrell or Tybee sailors carry something do do just that.



Nacra 6.0NA to kill myself quickly and a Johnson 18 to do it a little slower.
Re: PFD usage....blah, blah!!! [Re: Nacra546] #22200
07/16/03 09:38 PM
07/16/03 09:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
And what!? Cut away my precious mast to wander in the sea!

I would have never thought of it on a big boat (what a good idea) but rigging or no rigging, our cats aren't going far without a mast (i.e. no motor).


Jake Kohl
Re: PFD usage....blah, blah!!! [Re: Nacra546] #22201
07/17/03 01:53 AM
07/17/03 01:53 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
It has been recommended by other sailors that wire cutters be included in the kit of tools that you carry on your boat -- and also that every chase boat at a regatta should be equipped with a pair of wire cutters. The purpose is not to disconnect the mast from the boat, but to cut rigging if necessary to rescue somebody.

Re: PFD usage....blah, blah!!! [Re: Jake] #22202
07/17/03 08:13 AM
07/17/03 08:13 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 290
Pensacola, Florida / Katy, Tex...
Cookie Monster Offline
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Cookie Monster  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 290
Pensacola, Florida / Katy, Tex...
I think the reason that mono-slugs carry bolt cutters is to be able to cut the standing rigging loose in an emergency if they dismast. They usually dismast in rough weather, and lugging a mast along side a boat out of control in rough seas usually means trouble. It is a matter of time before the mast impales itself through the hull or does all kinds of damage banging against the side. (And, you know what happens to a mono-slug with a hole in it.) This is a quick fix by just dumping the mast. At least they'll stay floating and have a chance motoring back. I have demasted at least a half a dozen times on my cats, and have yet to see a need to ever cut the rig away. That's because the mast isn't that big and you can just man handle it back on the boat. Plus, when this happens, we're not exactly a 100 miles off shore either, and help shows up pretty quickly.

Just my 2 cents.

Don


Don Cook ARC22 #2226 ADRENALIN
Re: PFD usage....blah, blah!!! [Re: Mary] #22203
07/17/03 08:43 AM
07/17/03 08:43 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Quote
It has been recommended by other sailors that wire cutters be included in the kit of tools that you carry on your boat -- and also that every chase boat at a regatta should be equipped with a pair of wire cutters. The purpose is not to disconnect the mast from the boat, but to cut rigging if necessary to rescue somebody.


If you are responding to my post, as quoted here, I was responding about using wire cutters vis-a-vis beach cats. You're correct about the reason for cutting broken masts free on big boats, either to prevent damage to the hull or so that a shorter mast can be jury-rigged to complete a journey.

Wire cutters are sometimes used to cut the rigging and let the mast go in the case of beach cats, too, when it is necessary in order to salvage the boat. But the primary reason for having a set handy on a beach cat is to free someone who may be trapped by rigging that cannot be cut by a knife.

Re: cutting rigging [Re: Mary] #22204
07/17/03 11:07 AM
07/17/03 11:07 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 390
samevans Offline
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samevans  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 390
Mary,
I have a pair of the small hardened steel cable cutters. They go through 5/16" SS cable like butter.
I think it would be a good idea to carry them on a beach cat even though the chances of needing them are very slim, especially if you were distance racing or touring.
It would be nice if there was a set on crash/marks boats at regattas, along with various other safety equipment.

Re: PFD usage....blah, blah!!! [Re: Cookie Monster] #22205
07/17/03 01:35 PM
07/17/03 01:35 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
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Posts: 3,114
BANNED
I know carrying a pair of bolt cutters wouldn't help on the schock 35 I crew on. Its got discontinuous solid stainless steel rod rigging. Bolt cutters would break before they cut through that.

Jaws of life on the other hand

Re: PFD usage....blah, blah!!! [Re: MauganN20] #22206
07/17/03 02:49 PM
07/17/03 02:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
old hand
Will_R  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
I've been on some pretty big mono's...It would probably take a maxi sled to get big enough wire that a pair of regular cutters wouldn't be able to do it. I suspect that the Shock 35 carrys -8 or -10 rod. That could be cut with standard cutters.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...&catalogId=10001&productId=72021

But if your in an emergency, I bet this would work.

http://www.pyacht.net/cgi-local/Sof...hootit_12.htm?L+scstore+snjw7634ff882788

Re: PFD usage....blah, blah!!! [Re: Will_R] #22207
07/17/03 03:07 PM
07/17/03 03:07 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
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Posts: 3,114
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The rig is not the standard schock rig... its all CF and taller mast... three spreader rig. The rods are more than 1/4" think and solid, not hollow. I'd honestly put money on the rod, but if you have first hand experience, I'll fold.

Re: PFD usage....blah, blah!!! [Re: MauganN20] #22208
07/17/03 03:28 PM
07/17/03 03:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
old hand
Will_R  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
if it's .25", then it is -10 (6.4mm) or the next size up is -12 (7.1mm) rigging. I don't think that I have ever seen hollow rod rigging. Seems like I read somewhere that "standard" mechanical cutters could do up to -17, but don't quote me.

Raced on a couple of boats w/rod, but I quit slow boats a while back (~6 yrs). I can't remember what any of them had, but seems like the Soverel and First class 10 had -10 and the Hunter 45 had -10 also...

A moment of clarity [Re: jdr] #22209
07/17/03 03:35 PM
07/17/03 03:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Luiz  Offline
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Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Quote
...it was the scariest ride to the beach I ever had!
That's when common sense crapped on my head! ... It was a moment of clarity... I vowed never to leave the beach without my PFD ON ME AND MY CREW!


When small kids start their sailing lessons, one of the first drills is capsizing and righting an Optimist in the swiming pool. About the same time, there is another drill that is very usefull: each kid must float in the deep part of the pool as long as he/she can, without touching the bottom or borders, until he/she gets tired enough to worry about safety. Then a PFD is thrown and he/she wears it to find how safer and easier it is to float with its aid.

The idea is to provides them a similar "moment of clarity" in a less risky environment - and if a PFD may be necessary in a swimming pool, they can easily figure out how important it is "out there" with waves, boats, etc.

On the same subject: now that inflatable PFDs are available, the comfort improved substantially and old bad habits missed an important excuse. I wonder when an integral trapeze harness/inflatable PFD will finally be available. Ideally, it should come with wire cutter, knife and waterproof radio already clipped

Take care,
Luiz


Luiz
Re: PFD usage....blah, blah!!! [Re: jdr] #22210
07/17/03 04:04 PM
07/17/03 04:04 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf
hobiegary Offline
old hand
hobiegary  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf
You gotta wear 'em if you want them to save you when you'll need saving. If you don't wear them, ask yourself why. Too hot? Wet it down. To hindering? Buy a better fit. I suggest kayaking lifejackets. It is a good thing that I started to wear them BEFORE several events that might have drowned me. Here's one of them:
http://www.thebeachcats.com/modules...&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

My latest adventure

GARY



Santa Monica Bay
Mystere 6.0 "Whisk" <--- R.I.P.
Re: PFD usage....blah, blah!!! [Re: hobiegary] #22211
07/17/03 05:26 PM
07/17/03 05:26 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
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Posts: 3,114
BANNED
I have a kayaking vest as well, and I agree. It keeps the floatation higher on your body, where it counts the most


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