Delusional that I might consider myself in contention for the Olympic spot without quitting my job (or taking a partial sabbatical). Your post said something about how it would be great to see regular joes duking it out for the Olympic spot. I'm a decent sailor but without a significantly more time on the water and an honest dedicated training / coaching effort, I'm not going to be skilled enough to be competitive with that crowd.

+1, plus some serious $$$. The boat is the cheap part of that exercise.

THAT CROWD .... see! you do understand why Class's don't want to be Olympic... you automatically split the class into THAT CROWD and the rank and file Joes ...

So... do you want to turn your class over to THAT CROWD to operate in THEIR best interest? ...(Their interest is in What is the angle i can use to gain a jump on my competitors) or do you want your class to reflect the interests of the rank and file... Which is more like... how can I have fun sailing competitively in this class.

THAT CROWD is in the business of finding EVERY ANGLE for an advantage.

Just take a look at equipment rules.. ISAF required the use of a 100,000 dollar machine to laser scan each yingling hull to match the class approved hull form....PRICEY!!! Why you ask?... ... cause people were pushing the rules to get an edge... So... that means the class has to measure that edge and say... Pass... or No Pass... BUT IT COSTS THE CLASS Time and Money to do this and they have no choice if they want a "fair" competition to remain Olympic .... The average Joe may not want to deal with this culture of push every edge!!!.

This is the culture problem that we point to.

Having said that.... you can always compete in an Olympic class and join the fray or not. This is your personal choice...

However, If your class get's nailed as Olympic or your Class leadership decides to put you into the chaos by choice against your vote... You were screwed!

The Tornado Class has adapted to the Olympic chaos.... It's constantly changed to accommodate Olympics and it's popularity has been crushed..... those that stay with the class and boat... know what the game's about. They WANT to be Olympic.


Mark
(Mixed Sailing.... a reality tv show in the making just pretending to be the pinnacle of athletic competition. ...
Open Sailing... a gender blind pinnacle of athletic competition.
M/F Sailing... a gender sorted pinnacle of athletic competition)

WHY DO WE GO ALONG WITH MIXED DOUBLES????
What do you do with XXY sailors.... hmmm inquiring minds want to know?

Dude, seriously. Because I said "that crowd" does not mean I don't want to sail with them or consider them any differently than I do Randy Smyth, Woody Cope, Ben Hall, Ian Lindall, Phil Kinder, Lars Guck, etc or feel like they would have a negative impact on the fleet. I look forward to sailing against high level competition and this is part of the reason I sail an a-cat. If I was that freaked out by someone that paid some outfit to refare their hull straight from the factory or re-rig the entire boat to their liking I would have quit racing in a fleet with Alex Shafer or David Lennard a long time ago. I sure as hell would be freaked out by campaigning an 11 year old A-cat.

If someone spent 30 hours a week training on the water for a year I wouldn't get bent out of shape that they spent $5,000 or $10,000 working on their hull if they beat me. You act like you are all bidding for a national title and this will affect your income and standard of living. I race because it is challenging and it does not become less so when the level of competition increases.

Hypothetically, if the Hobie 16 were to become an Olympic class, what kind of changes would you expect to see to the class? I would expect that the build quality and consistency would improve on new stuff and who would complain about that? (I'm not saying anything bad about Hobie - all manufacturers have areas they can improve quality and consistency). OK, so cost would increase...what else? So what would change in your class?

Oh, and by the way, the Yngling is built by many different builders making it very difficult to control legal hull shapes. That wouldn't be the case with a strict SMOD class.

I think we're experiencing the short comings of inter net chats. Without seeing facial expressions and hearing inflexion much communication is lost.

IF there were a series of qualifying events it might be fun to see how far one might progress. In my case it wouldn't be very far and I wouldn't spend much time or money.

For me it's just sailing, I don't place nearly the importance on it that some of you do.

Currently, it's a moot point. There is no spot for us in the Olympics.

You are missing the point... YOU, personally, can certainly make those CHOICES... What ever floats your boat.

Take the F18 Class... the leadership reflecting, the rank and file perspective want NO PART of Olympic Class. They considered the issue and voiced their strong point of view.
They said.. NO... because their class members would have NO CHOICE but to play the Olympic game and bend to the Olympic Culture...eg "THAT CROWD". They strongly felt it would ruin their very strong class and it's culture.

Ditto the A class....

It's not about competition... it's about the culture (see above). Any F18 or A class sailor is more then welcome to jump into the Tornado Class (old Olympic). It won't change the Class culture of either the F18's/A Class... or the Tornado Class.

When Tornado Olympic Sailors jumped into the F18 Class for fun or profit .... They were expected to play like all of the other kids in the sand box... So... they raced Stock boats and kicked butt... The class grew quite well.

Now you see... pricey custom boards, etc etc... The F18 Culture is under some pressure. Time will tell if the culture takes a hit.

Whoa, Mark, be careful not to mix the issues. The F18s are a development class, and sooner or later, dudes with cash will appear and push the envelope (custom boards, etc.); Olympic guys or not has nothing to do with it, it's just a mindset and an open set of rules.

To answer Jake's question, the H16 class is already highly tightly controlled (class rules changes take forever), so other than MAYBE making that even harder, I doubt much would change. Then again, H16 sailors see the strict SMOD and tight class rules as an appealing part of the class. YMMV...

EDIT: I spend some time around Lasers. From what I can tell, other than "those guys" buying new boats and/or sails more frequently, the class rules are super-tight, and there are no boat development escalation wars. Rank and file sailors seem to be pretty happy with this setup, and the opportunity to sail against "those guys." The H16 class and the Laser class are very, very simliar in terms of class rule culture.

Mike

Mike

I suspect that Laser had sold 100,000 boats before they became Olympic.... that class culture is established and 100 Laser Olympic hopefuls can do their own thing, shop boats and masts and not affect the class culture much. Hobie has sold more then that in H16's. Even if they force a spin on the 16 for Olympics... I doubt you could change the culture much in the US.... Probably just let the spin fleet go it's merry Olympic way.

But... 40 to 50 Olympic Tornado's... certainly dominated the much smaller Tornado Class (couple hundred class members) and the Olympic guys controlled the class.... (Olympics are the reason the class exists)

Re F18's... Sure, the very top of the class was busy mixing and matching parts from different builders from the very beginning ... But it has taken many a year for third party foil makers to convince some class members to upgrade. I assert the Class Culture did a pretty good job of delivering the message... Sail the damn boat that you bought and stop trying to get an equipment edge.... we are about racing skill... not high tech development, the boats are pretty equal. (See A class for more of that mindset)

Again... the whole point of the thread was to offer an explanation for WHY you don't want to be an Olympic Class.... (It's not about the competition or competitors)

But we still haven't received one solid reason WHY other than "we don't want to be part of that culture" (someone said something like that). What are the specific drawbacks? I think we're assuming that a lot of things would change without really understanding the issues. I suggest that that boat class's quality will get better at some expense to cost and that the quality of the competition will increase.

People are really starting to spend money on custom F18 pieces parts but we've all sort-a agreed that those guys probably would have beaten us on any other boat anyway. It's what I call the "Nth degree" - buying all that stuff helps you less with your boat speed than your mindset so you quit worrying about who has the best stuff....but back to the point....

What damage would be done to a class to have it be an Olympic class? So the culture might shift but to what and by how much? We're not talking about 200 teams infiltrating your class ranks. We're talking about, at most, 10 to 15 Olympic hopefuls in any given country.

10 or 15 Teams?

Probably depends on if the slot is open in a country. When Randy Retired.. 3 Major teams worked for three cycles.. I think 5 or 6 teams really gave it a shot for Atlanta with a completely open field..... Olympic Hopefuls raced and trained in the EU.


Issues for the Class.
Culture. winning by exploiting an equipment edge in the rules is part of the game. Evidence,... Tornado masts build program. Proprietary Sail material program, a perpetual game of whack a mole until the class philosophy is forced to SMOD... just to cut the BS.

Culture. Only one slot available.... Means training programs must be multinational. Undercuts the ideal of building a strong racing class.

ISAF Grade I Circuit. Most of USA racing season is spent in the EU.

Of course for the individual
Costs. Training and competing on a circuit world wide is very expensive.

Sponsors: Limited number of sponsors in any one country means that one team locks out all of the others in the fund raising game.

Why don't we have more Grade I events in the USA? Is it just because the EU countries are smaller and closer to one another (reducing/easing travel)?

I see your point about the development vs. SMOD issue, though, and can see where that would upset the F18 guys.

Mike

I simply find it harder to believe that 5 teams are going to have such a negative impact to an existing class.



Make it SMOD like the Laser - problem is then 98% solved even if the class falls within a subcategory of an existing formula class. The higher the quality and repeatability of the manufacturing, this factor becomes even less.



Again, if it's just 5 teams that are dealing with this - will it affect the class in any way?



I'm not familiary with this although I am a "P.R.O." type sailor (Parties Really Obnoxiously)



That is a problem for the Olympic hopefuls and the countries that intend to win medals in the Olympics - not the class.

Grade I events.

Well they are held where the competitors are.

The northern hemisphere schedule breaks down so that the OCR must be held in Jan/Feb... so the boats can get to the US after the EU season... and then to the Southern hemisphere if needed... and then back to the EU for the season over there for the next cycle.

Worlds are scheduled with the grade I events in mind. The elite circuit is controlled by the Grade I events.


Hell... the proposal is for ISAF to actually take over the Olympic class's actual World Championship.... It just eliminates the amateur class leadership this way....

At the end of the day... I listened to an old guard Olympic sailor who would always advise.... trust me... you don't want your class to be Olympic. I joined the class... watched the BS... THEN I understood what she meant. It was a great experience... BUT... there are just issues.

Yes it will

If you took the top 5 competitors out of the F18 NA's because their boats were not back to the US in time... Your event will suffer your class will suffer.

if the studs are not racing... then... eh.. well it can't be much of an event.....
Childish .. sure! but it's human nature.

If you are required to schedule your NA's in Nov or Dec in the US to avoid the Grade I circuit and accommodate the 5 guys. ... your class can not move around the country to grow and support fleets.

You are locked into just a few Southern venues to host your NA's.... (Miami, Houston or San Diego)

people seem very confused about the difference between OLYMPIC EVENTS and OLYMPIc EQUIPEMENT

We have to put up a united front to get the EVENTS committee to notice and accept multihulls first.

Once we get past them, we can start worrying about submissions to the EQUIPEMENT committee

Paul.

Events and equipment are always tied together.

The politics have convinced you guys that MIXED is the optimal solution. It sounds like it's a done deal..

I disagree and want the cat powers that be to hold on principle. One event is fine... Open it should be.... THEN you can sort through the equipment choices.

I think that Open or Two events M/F are far better for defining the pinnacle of the sport.
Moreover, we have an AC event on cats.... our standing has never been higher.... We should not play small here.... We should not compromise

Pics please

Mike

I suspect that Laser had sold 100,000 boats before they became Olympic.... that class culture is established and 100 Laser Olympic hopefuls can do their own thing, shop boats and masts and not affect the class culture much. Hobie has sold more then that in H16's. Even if they force a spin on the 16 for Olympics... I doubt you could change the culture much in the US.... Probably just let the spin fleet go it's merry Olympic way.

Hmmmm a spin on the hobie 16 huh, spose you could attatch those hobie fins to the bow of it, so it wont pitch pole in anything over 5 knots...I can see full use of the rocker there, they did say make it spectacular, imagine the sideways slip lol cmon... its gotta be a Inter 17 mixed..as I hear no other takers here..

When EXACTLY did this become SA? At least you're not asking to see their... nevermind.


One other thing, you guys claiming that there is a "gentleman's agreement" or class culture pushing F18 sailors to sail stock boats. Is that an NA thing, or is that truly global? Or would anyone here even know for sure?

Also, when did this start? I distinctly recall the "growing pains" of the early (US) Tiger sailors, as the boat went from pinhead to squaretop, got a self-tacker, etc. This was after the boat had been available and (presumably) developing in Europe for many years.

Seems to me that since F18 is a developmental class, this would be an unfair thing to assume people to accept. Simply put, the rules allow changes. Not allowing changes only accomplishes forcing people to trade boats every few years, and makes the older designs lose value more quickly.

Mike