Guys at 65 - 75 kilos are pretty common in an awful lot of countries, they also have a lot more physical strength than ladies of the same weight, whats the problem.

I for one would definately vote against the F16's entering the Olympics, the Viper as a SMOD would be another matter. The Viper being selected would leave the semi development class as it is and allow all the development in sails and hulls to those who want to do just that, develop the class whilst the Viper class would remain the Viper. Best of all worlds for all concerned.

Something very odd happened to the F16 handicap for that event! the other boats in the fleet weren't very happy and Ms Broujer didn't do herself any favours that week, let alone sell anything!

If I remember... they did not declare the boat as an F16... they used their measurement rating certificate...(which is slower). That's an F16 class issue (oft debated... never resolved but not really an issue in an Open class regatta.

Thank you. Now at least there is a little more data to consider.

Can anyone provide accurate weights for any of these other crews?

I'd like to compare JW's 140-150 premise to Macca's 120.

2nd was a mixed team on a Viper at about 130kg
3rd was a mixed/youth team on a spitfire at 125kg
4 and 5th were youth teams on sl 16s

not very accurate but gives some idea

I'm on record as thinking the T will be the Olympic boat, if only because it is arguably at the forefront (still) of being one of the coolest cats out there, and, as is obvious, the fleet knows how to be an Olympic class and has been there for a while.

Now, that said, I can see why the n20c would be a great boat for the Olympics (clearly it is bleeding edge cat design), but from a non cat sailor perspective, it is so new that maybe it is seen as too risky compare to the T (again, my opinion / hunch, I know you can poke holes in this).

Now, the Viper, hmmm, never even thought of that. If it came down to a H16 with spin or Viper, I would hope the entire cat world would get behind the Viper as IMO it would at least appeal to both non sailors and sailors as being a respectible boat. An H16? Maybe to non sailors, but any racing sailor knows that boat, as friendly as it is, is simply out dated (again IMO).

For me the real question comes down to Mixed vs Open vs Men / Women boats. I think mixed is an awful idea, open could work and maybe should focus on a boat like an F16 as to at least make it more likely you will have female teams, male teams, mixed teams. 50/50 split would mean two different boats, challenging to find two that would work I think.

My rant, hope we can keep this discussion as a discussion and not as some sort of cat fight (pardon the pun, couldn't help myself). As any infighting would certainly hurt cat sailing in the long run.

That's beginning to sound like a professional team sailing against amateurs. Is this the case? I don't object to pro/am events but I would like the case to be made clear.

Devon, you've put a lot out there as though it were fact. I'm not trying to single you out here, but if you think you've correctly summarized the Tornado Class' position with "they know they're not the fastest," you're continuing to illustrate the sort of limited view that helped create the atmosphere wherein we lost the event in the first place. Like as not, it is a fact that the event must be chosen first. Further, nowhere does it say that the fastest multihull must be chosen as the equipment. Under the "mixed" designation, the Tornado Class still feels good about their chances of being selected, so you're not arguing for "any 20-footer," you want one specific boat. I'm sorry, but that approach simply doesn't earn a seat at the table for a discussion about what the event should be.

The submission (097-10) we're discussing is from the Exec and based upon the Olympic Commission's report, which was vetted through the IOC. This thing has pedigree and the significant thing from our perspective is that a multihull event is expressed to be important to include. Those are facts.

Nice question Jake.

I asked 2 past Olympic T sailors and one guy that campaigned and the answer was:
1) Hobie 16, maybe an F18
2) Hobie 16
3) F18


And if you're going to call the 16 'outdated'(etc,etc), then to be fair you'd better then describe why it's the largest actively raced catamaran class in the world.

This discussion is quickly becoming as relevant and interesting as the Drill baby thread.
Multi’s are not even back in the picture yet and sailing general looks to tentative at best.

No matter the boat (or sport) there will be some optimum body weight/shape that eventually becomes gospel. The result is due as much from the actual physics as it is from the competitor psychology.

The reality is on any given day with the conditions the very top level guys may have an extremely small advantage over the other top level teams due to fitting the environment that day. If it changes one of the other teams may better fit the next day. This may, at the highest level, help determine some pecking order. Once you move down in the ranks from the very top, any small advantage from being at the optimal weight is completely over powered by the skill level of the team. The skilled team light or heavy will win.

What is frustrating is for 99.99% of the sailors I know weight has nothing to do with their performance. 1 Tiny mistake on the course completely outweighs any weight based gains or losses they may ever be able to realize. (When was the last time anyone reading this ran the perfect race – I’m lucky if I can keep it in the groove for 10 boat lengths at a time.) Yet the discussions on this board and on the beach constantly revolve around weight. “What is optimum, oh, I’m too big to be competitive, I cannot get that boat because I’m 5kg over some number somebody posted on a forum etc…..

We as cat sailors really do ourselves a disservice with discussions like this. It definitely hurts trying to sell our sport to the world, sell to the converts from the sport boat world and it definitely does the new sailor no good to try and learn when he is constantly being brainwashed into believing his performance is limited due to some 10kg weight window.

Yes, one pro team on a mission against 50 amateurs [Some with sponsorship but not pro]

Loday and Henry White work for Loday/White but are probably not paid to sail

This is not a class issue; any boat participating in a race as an F16 must sail off the official F16 rating (that is based on the class rules and not actual measurements). Any boat declared otherwise may and must request an individual rating based on actual measurements of that particular boat. This rating will then have nothing to do with the F16 class and the F16 class will not accept any such measurements or certificates as valid for F16 racing.

F16 class rules only govern F16 racing and boats explicetly declared as such in open class races. Other situations are not the F16 class responsibility. Identical situations arise with respect to the F18 and A-cat classes. Therefor it is not a (F16) class issue.

Wouter

What Matt McDonald said

+1

OK, no one wanted to repsond when I pointed out that mixed events are already successfully in the Olympics (mixed ice skating).

Here's another fake issue: old people don't bring in Olympic spectators. One of the fastest growing sports (in terms of TV time, at least) is curling. Lots of old people there, it's a game where skill can outweigh athletic prowess (not unlike sailing, BTW)...

Mike

Wouter

You can't expect the rest of the open fleet to follow the ins' and outs of the F16 pool of boats....In their world... you don't have the same boats that are sometime F18's and sometimes not F18's on any given weekend.

when Viper sailors choose to not play as F16's as is their right when they don't make class in an open event and have a measurement certificate.... it does cause some amount of indigestion in the rest of the fleet when the ratings are quite different. Your mileage will vary as to whether this is an issue for the F16 class or not.

From the fleet's point of view... if the boat carries an F16 sticker on it. (no matter how the owner wants to register it that day with or without a ratings certificate.) ... then it's an F16.... if the owner wants to be something other then F16... he should remove the F16 stickers from the sail, boat etc. It's in the class's interest to preserve their branding, tradmark and rating and they should require the sailors to abide by the rule and register as F16 if they have the stickers..

Bottom line, Even if that's what the vipers did... it will STILL be confusing/annoying to the fleet because few will notice the absence of the F16 labels on the boat. That's just the way it will be.

I KNEW Curling would come up...

I certainly watched the hot danish team.... too bad the teams figured out the camera angles as the contest went on... BUT thankfully ... IT WAS NOT MIXED!

Pairs Figure skating and Ice Dancing are simply different ... I doubt pairs men's ice dancing is going to be popular... I don't want to opine about women's ice dancing... (grin) But... I believe Will Farrell explored this issue with one of his fine documentaries.

Bottom line.. the nature of MIXED sailing... is completely different then the nature of MIXED Ice dancing.

When coed (Mixed) volleyball makes the olympics... I will drop my objection to coed Mixed sailing.

Amen... (and you are certainly qualified in every regard as to render an opinion on this matter).

I'm guessing you don't sail much in very light air, with chop, against teams that are disparately lighter in combined weight...if they are good, they can absolutely kill the heavy teams downwind.

Exactly. 097-10 was vetted through the IOC through the ISAF EC. Therefore, to buck that consensus could logically imperil the process and possibly entire event of Olympic sailing. If I were the IOC, I would have just about had enough with the sailing MNA's equipment agendas. At this point, a unanimous consensus solution should be advanced to the IOC, rather than continue acrimonious discussions over equipment and team composition. This may be the only path capable of both preserving the catamaran 'voice' in the discussion (and possibly the entirity of Olympic Sailing). As a community, some compromise in team composition for a mixed event seems a logical way to grow popularity, preserve the catamaran and salvage the event. I think Olympic Sailing needs the catamaran, and they need something to draw people into the spectacle. I don't think mixed teams are such a bad expedient in this regard. I am more vexed by what should be the boat selected.

For me, the question should be more about 'which cat do you think we should sail', and not about bucking the IOC and ISAF EC's recommendations.

Matt, we are not discussing an event that will see 99.99% of the sailing public take part, we are talking about an event and hence a class for the OLYMPIC GAMES.... and at that level weights do make a big difference. Ask the T fleet from Beijing if any of them went to the games at their normal weight? Or if they think 10kg makes a difference to performance?

Consider that 10kg weight difference makes a difference at the Games level whilst sailing on a 20ft boat with its associated displacement, now have a think about the impact of 10kg on a boat that's 4ft shorter! the % is massive. Now before you go an tell me it makes no difference to 99.99% of the sailors, remember: this is the OLYMPIC GAMES.