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Re: Depowering [Re: Pippo] #224029
11/13/10 12:09 AM
11/13/10 12:09 AM
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Posts: 142
3 weeks Newman WA 1 week Robe ...
Brian P Offline
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pray!!!!
bearing away ( gently, without ripping hard on rudders, if you slow you down to quickly, you change the apparent wind and it will push you over more)
easing the kite is also good at same time



Brian Partridge
STINGRAY 580 "Fantasia"
A Class 585 "FHARKEN A"


YOU CAN'T POLISH A TURD
BUT YOU CAN ROLL IT IN GLITTER!!!!!
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Depowering [Re: Brian P] #224030
11/13/10 03:13 AM
11/13/10 03:13 AM
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Pippo Offline OP
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OK, that makes much sense. Thx!

Re: Depowering [Re: wildtsail] #224056
11/13/10 05:19 PM
11/13/10 05:19 PM
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Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
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Victoria, Australia
Originally Posted by wildtsail
Have you actually seen a Tiger mast break where you were sure it was the mainsheet eased too much? I've seen half a dozen masts break for one reason or another, and there was always something else... spreader failure, mast rotated in, downhaul on, etc. I've dropped the mainsheet on my boat on my N20 and on my F18 and the mast was fine. Plus, we have insurance for a reason, sail the boat fast, worry about breaking stuff when it happens.
Look at this picture of Mischa going downwind at Canadian Nationals... this is pretty much the most you'd ever want it out, his head is just on the verge of twisting off and bleeding some power, the most you'd want to let it out would be another 6 inches, plenty of support still there for your mast.


I broke a Tiger mast once. Almost certainly caused by insufficient main tension. Note it was very high winds - 25+ knots + a gust. Spreaders, diamond wires etc etc etc were all in tact when it came down.

Tiger Mike

Re: Depowering [Re: Pippo] #224065
11/13/10 07:24 PM
11/13/10 07:24 PM
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pinax Offline
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Note though that this thread has yielded two opposite answers for what to do with the spinnaker sheet when the windward hull starts to lift to much:

Originally Posted by Scarecrow
You should also experiment with the crew sheeting the kite on in gusts to flatten it and reduce power. Its counter intuitive but in some conditions works a treat.

Originally Posted by Brian P
easing the kite is also good at same time

A good skipper tells me that oversheeting the kite is a better way to settle the boat back down because he doesn't have to steer down so much. This struck me as backwards, but he would certainly know and I'll be trying it next time we're out. Can anyone explain to me why this works, or in what kind of conditions it works? I guess once you start to stall the kite you've got a lot less force sucking the mast over (and the boat on its ear)? Thanks.

Last edited by pinax; 11/13/10 07:24 PM.
Re: Depowering [Re: pinax] #224066
11/13/10 08:01 PM
11/13/10 08:01 PM
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3 weeks Newman WA 1 week Robe ...
Brian P Offline
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if you think of the scenario, wind is behind you.
same with mainsail, if you let main sail all the way out,ie sail is 90 degrees to the wind, you are exposing the maximum amount of sailarea to the wind. therefor, if you sheet in,sail is 0 degrees to the wind, you are exposing the least amount of sail area to the wind, therefore more in control, less healing leverage is applied to your rig.


Brian Partridge
STINGRAY 580 "Fantasia"
A Class 585 "FHARKEN A"


YOU CAN'T POLISH A TURD
BUT YOU CAN ROLL IT IN GLITTER!!!!!
Re: Depowering [Re: Brian P] #224067
11/13/10 08:03 PM
11/13/10 08:03 PM
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3 weeks Newman WA 1 week Robe ...
Brian P Offline
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when i said easing the kite, i meant more than enough so it gets to a point where it can spill wind, not just easing a foot or so.


Brian Partridge
STINGRAY 580 "Fantasia"
A Class 585 "FHARKEN A"


YOU CAN'T POLISH A TURD
BUT YOU CAN ROLL IT IN GLITTER!!!!!
Re: Depowering [Re: Brian P] #224068
11/13/10 08:18 PM
11/13/10 08:18 PM
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pinax Offline
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Originally Posted by Brian P
if you let main sail all the way out,ie sail is 90 degrees to the wind, you are exposing the maximum amount of sailarea to the wind. therefor, if you sheet in,sail is 0 degrees to the wind, you are exposing the least amount of sail area to the wind, therefore more in control, less healing leverage is applied to your rig.

That works in my Laser going DDW. But at 19+ kts downhill in an F18 the wind is practically in my face, and it stays there unless we start to stuff it (at which point it quickly clocks back). Assuming we keep the front from digging in and the boat keeps moving, the last thing my gut tells me to do when the puff hits is sheet in on the kite. But I'm told this works great.

Re: Depowering [Re: pinax] #224069
11/13/10 08:24 PM
11/13/10 08:24 PM
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3 weeks Newman WA 1 week Robe ...
Brian P Offline
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3 weeks Newman WA 1 week Robe ...
the trick is to be able to change direction without slowing down too much, apparent winds etc. be subtle, but do it very quickly


Brian Partridge
STINGRAY 580 "Fantasia"
A Class 585 "FHARKEN A"


YOU CAN'T POLISH A TURD
BUT YOU CAN ROLL IT IN GLITTER!!!!!
Re: Depowering [Re: Brian P] #224101
11/14/10 11:09 AM
11/14/10 11:09 AM
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Pippo Offline OP
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Well, I'm enjoying this. BTW, this thread is slowly becoming "F18 downwind steering". I was at the beach this morning. No wind at all, so plenty of time to discuss with the others. The discussion went on how to steer an F18 downwind with the spin up: I know, luff to gain speed, bear away to gain ground. Yes, but how often are those corrections made? Every 5 seconds? Every ten seconds? Once in a while?

Re: Depowering [Re: Pippo] #224105
11/14/10 11:49 AM
11/14/10 11:49 AM
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Kiel, Germany
Baltic Offline
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Kiel, Germany
It should be your aim to keep the hull in the same distance from the water surface the whole time. If it flies to high, bear away, if comes down, point higher. All this very subtle, depending on the wind changes in speed and dirction.


F18: C2 / A-Cat: Minelli
Re: Depowering [Re: Baltic] #224120
11/14/10 06:18 PM
11/14/10 06:18 PM
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Pippo Offline OP
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Is there a sort of equilibrium situazion, i.e. if all things are constant, then the boat proceeds with a constant speed and direction while flying a hull?

Re: Depowering [Re: Pippo] #224121
11/14/10 06:41 PM
11/14/10 06:41 PM
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Posts: 1,430
california
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california
I have found in constant wind and relatively flat water your still making adjustments. Sailing down wind like a snake. easy up, easy down, repeat as needed. Hull about 6 inches to a foot up .


Richard Vilvens
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Fairfield, Ca
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Re: Depowering [Re: pinax] #224163
11/15/10 05:36 AM
11/15/10 05:36 AM
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Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Baltic Offline
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Kiel, Germany
Originally Posted by pinax
Note though that this thread has yielded two opposite answers for what to do with the spinnaker sheet when the windward hull starts to lift to much:

Originally Posted by Scarecrow
You should also experiment with the crew sheeting the kite on in gusts to flatten it and reduce power. Its counter intuitive but in some conditions works a treat.

Originally Posted by Brian P
easing the kite is also good at same time

A good skipper tells me that oversheeting the kite is a better way to settle the boat back down because he doesn't have to steer down so much. This struck me as backwards, but he would certainly know and I'll be trying it next time we're out. Can anyone explain to me why this works, or in what kind of conditions it works? I guess once you start to stall the kite you've got a lot less force sucking the mast over (and the boat on its ear)? Thanks.


So, two different schools here, somebody should start a poll.
Is my assumption correct, that the party "pro easing the spin" also votes for opening the traveller and vice versa?


F18: C2 / A-Cat: Minelli
Re: Depowering [Re: Baltic] #224212
11/15/10 12:45 PM
11/15/10 12:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 71
F
F18_VB Offline
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Easing the mainsheet will not break the mast. Dropping it and letting it all run out all the way can make it break.

I pull the mainsheet in and out 1 arm length. Because it is one arm length, I never need to let got of it and risk it going all the way out.

I think that easing the main is the fastest method. It does three things:

1. It increases the twist int he main. This reduces the healing and pitching moment directly.

2. It creates more lee helm. This allows the boat to bear off without using as much rudder. This reduces the drag from the rudders and reduces the tendency of bearing away pushing the bows under the water because the rudders are the vertical when the boat flies a hull.

3. The top of the mast bends forwards because it is like easing a backstay. The way that F18 spinnakers are cut, this flattens the spinnaker and reduces its power.

I feel that easing the spinnaker or the traveler in a gust will increase the likelihood of pitch-poling. When the bows start to dig in the boat boat slows down and the apparent wind comes back. Easing the spinnaker or traveler will be powering up the main and spinnaker.

Re: Depowering [Re: F18_VB] #224610
11/25/10 01:46 AM
11/25/10 01:46 AM
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Posts: 337
Arizona
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Arizona
Great thread guys, keep it coming!

I am looking for the same Jeanie in a bottle. It seems that by the time I start to bear away, its to late. The spin gains so much power as the apparent wind moves forward that by the time I begin to bear away, its too late and I need to bear away hard deep sixing the bows.
Its fun and exhilarating but probably not the fastest method of getting down wind. It seems like there is something missing from the equation. I sail mostly on lake pleasant in Az where the winds are seldom steady so this may just be how I need to sail in these conditions, more time in the saddle will likely help. I will try running out an armful of main sheet next time out.

I sailed in Santa Barbara a few months back @ Wine & Roses, the winds were pretty steady 15mph and unidirectional. I watched as the F-18 guys blasted around the course seeming to stand their cats almost on their noses while under spin. I couldn't gain control of all that power on my N6.0. Hull flying wildly up and down, fighting to keep from diving the bows. At that time, My crew was very in experienced also but managed to stay on the boat. I was attempting to do my S turnes but couldnt make them remotely fast enough. Up the hull would go and by the time that I was able to attempt to turn down, the rudders were deep sixing the bows.
I have been told that I may need to be a little more patient while the boat gains speed without heading too close towards a reach. That makes sense and I am working on that whenever I go out. I just seems like the spin is stalling out, so I continue to turn up till I feel it power up, then attempt to turn down before the hull raises too far. Its usually too late and again, the rudders deep six the bows.
Should the crew be sheeting out more to get the spin to power up without me needing to turn up so far? It seems like the boat is tripping.


Auscat MKV 444 A class
NACRA I-20- 440/CATHATKA
Re: Depowering [Re: AzCat] #224611
11/25/10 06:27 AM
11/25/10 06:27 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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uk
Same old question ....
How old is the kite and is it a decent design

If any boat needs a good kite with a controllable leech, it's the 6.0

Last edited by TEAMVMG; 11/25/10 06:28 AM.

Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: Depowering [Re: AzCat] #224626
11/26/10 01:12 AM
11/26/10 01:12 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 71
F
F18_VB Offline
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Originally Posted by azcat
I sailed in Santa Barbara a few months back @ Wine & Roses, the winds were pretty steady 15mph and unidirectional.

I just missed you. I sail in SB almost every weekend of the year, but had to be out of town that weekend.
Originally Posted by azcat
Up the hull would go and by the time that I was able to attempt to turn down, the rudders were deep sixing the bows.
Originally Posted by azcat
Should the crew be sheeting out more to get the spin to power up without me needing to turn up so far?

You need to keep the boat moving fast and you need to head up and down in phase with the wind. I suspect you were out of phase. You need to be sailing deep, not heading down, when the gust hits and sailing high, not heading up, when the lull hits. Its all about anticipation. Get your head out of the boat looking at the wind.

Something that is likely unique about ocean to you are the long period waves. Frequently in SB the waves play a larger part in powering up and down the boat than the wind. Because the waves are fairly periodic, it is easy to anticipate what will happen next. Again, you need to have your head out of the boat looking at the waves / wind.

Second, you need to not slow down. Because the center of gravity is above the water, the act of turning toward the direction that the boat is healed will level it off. This is the same effect that keeps a bicycle balanced. Going twice as fast make the effect four times larger because the force goes up with the square of speed.

Don't head down too hard. The rudders will create drag and it won't be as fast of an angle. Keep the spinnaker trimmed. You are correct, your crew should let out the spinnaker any time the hull comes down. It might be frustrating at first because the boat will accelerate, the apparent wind will come forward and the spinnaker will try to collapse. Again, the crew has to anticipate this. When the crew feels the boat accelerate, they need to be ready to sheet back in.

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