Ouch!

My comments were about full 18 (or 17) style wings, not little hiking bars, but...

Yes, without your wings your 17 would be hard to keep upright - the sailplan was designed that way.

Your wings, and the 18 wings, weigh significantly more than 5 pounds. The magnum wings add about 40 lbs with tramps to the 18. They catch waves when you fly a hull - it didn't take much to do that.

And, in the "find a way to make your boat go faster than the other guys" mode - if you don't routinely have enough wind to trap from the wings, they're a waste. Simple observation on the 18 shows that trapezing from the hull offers more righting moment than hiking on the wings. Trapping from the wings gives a lot, but is rarely needed with adult sailors (at least on the Chesapeake) - it was fun when it did happen.

So, simple logic pointed to removing them for racing. I dropped the weight too, by the way. But the 30 lbs I lost would have been only 30 lbs and I still would have been dragging the wings around mostly for nothing. So I took 70 lbs off the boat...

Through the years I've done ok in our club racing with and without the wings so I've got no whining to do. But, I did do better without them...

http://berean.org/sc15/awards2001/PHOTOGALLERY.HTML

Thanks, Keith, for defending yourself and me and Hans.

And, Maugan, I think I remember you saying that you don't race your 17, but that you crew racing on big monohulls. Maybe it is the mono sailors who are doing the whining?

And, Hans, after being out of the boat-building business for a while, you can see how tough it is to be a designer and builder these days. Everyone is a critic. Personally, I am very happy to see another builder back in business in the United States. But, also, personally, I would have liked to see your new boat fit into the Formula 16HP class. See, there we go again -- another critic.

I think I will send Hans an e-mail about the Formula 16 specs (F16 HP).

Hans look into you mailbox !

Wouter

wen you ready for your 5 meter g-cat i talk to you abaut the wings. hans

good word keith abaut the wings..hans

this is a good one mary. hans

remember the everage windspeed were you sailing,and howe many times you using the wings. hans

i only buildet one new g-cat 5 meter turbo for testing if ther is a market for the formula 16' i will think abaut making changes. hans

thank you wouter for the specs. hans

I Don't think the wings weight any more than a couple pounds each. I can pick each one up with my pinky finger, and I'm by no means a rock climber or body builder. I've sailed on a 18SX, and I know where your consternation comes from, those things are huge, and heavy. The 17 wings are little more than a tube with a small piece of cloth on them. What I'm talking about here is a bar for trapping out, not a huge 18sx style wing.

And to keep my windward hull skimming the water in anything over 10knots, I'm trapt out.

The only reason I haven't raced yet, is because shite keeps breaking at the most inopportune moment, and the 17 sailors have been sailing in the class for years, and theres no way I'd get a place amongst those guys.

Sorry, couldn't resist. Best way to to start racing is to jump in and do it - take your lumps at first and vow to beat the suckers next time! Or find a club that's a little lower pressure. Can't find one? Start one! Also, if you wait until your boat stops breaking to do anything, you'll never do it! Breaking is just one of the things boats do...

You might be surprised at how much weight total the wings add. My wings are the old style magnum wings, not the even bigger SX wings. Mine are basically a loop of tubing with some extra supports and small tramps - pretty much the same idea as the 17 except they hinge and thus have support tubes underneath that rest on the outer beam castings. And, taken individually they're not that heavy, and yes, you can lift them easily with various body parts if you're so inclined! For 40lbs or so total, that's 20 lbs per side. The tramps actually weigh a bit (even the mesh), so the bare wings themselves might be 10-15. It all adds up.

My point being about the class sailing, it simply isn't worth it.

Driving halfway across the country, skipping out on several days of class and work, and spending ungodly amounts of money in the process simply wasn't worth it for a DFL. No matter how fast or what I do to my boat, those guys have been doing it for years, and I'll never really be as good as they are. Plus, this is my learning boat, so when things break, I simple spend enough on it to get it working (not always class legal).

Maugan, this is really depressing stuff. If other people have your attitude, no wonder one-design racing is dying. Almost everybody begins their racing career finishing at the back of the pack -- including my father and including Rick White. You learn a lot more about sailing by racing and being DFL than by not even trying and having a DNS (did not start) or a DNC (did not compete).

Mary:

I'm not going to drive all over the country, spend a ton of money, and be DFL.

I've got local regattas here where I can hone my skills and become a better sailor without landing myself in the welfare line.

I think you would be surprised where you might end up with all your monoslug experience - I know the guys you speak of well.

Honestly, I take a little offense to your approach (perhaps it's because I'm still cranky from the 14 hour drive back from Ohio yesterday). I do travel all across the country and spend money on this sport but I hit the race course in the morning with the mindset of "what can I learn today?". Yeah, I've had my DFLs but I have learned a ton, am a much better sailor for it, and only spent a very short while in DFL. Don't knock it till you try it.

Maugan, somehow I got the impression from one of your other posts that there are Hobie 17 sailors in your area, so I didn't understand what you meant by driving all over the country. If you are just referring to it being necessary to go to a Hobie 17 Nationals (Continentals) in order to sail against other 17's, that's a once-a-year event, and it is well worth scheduling vacation time and money for. Going to one national event will put your learning curve through the roof because of how much you will learn at an event like that. Finish position is irrelevant.

It sounds like you are saying you WOULD take the time and spend the money if you were guaranteed of winning a trophy but otherwise it just isn't worth it. To me that is sort of like saying you will spend the time and money to go to college if you can be guaranteed that you will graduate phi beta kappa but otherwise it just isn't worth it.

Jake:
I understand why you like to travel to far off places to compete. I would to if it were feasible for me to do so economically. I can learn something from local races around here in the same way you can from travelling. Granted the "level of instruction" might not be the best, but I'm not spending $150 in gas to get there. (my recent trip to Tybee I spent well over $200 in fuel, partly because I had to come through columbia/charlotte on the way back)

Mary:
Sam Evans lives nearby. John Sherm lives in Wilmington. Both are competitive sailors. I can't speak for Sam, but I know for a fact that Mr. Sherm does not race around here. He only has time for the national, continenals and so forth. What I race against are the Isotope sailors around Durham, who aren't a shabby bunch in and amongst themselves.

As for your analogy, I'd rather compare it to this:
I don't want to spend the money going to Harvard when I know I'll flunk out. I realize it would be a futile endeavor and while I may learn a great deal, I'll still walk away technically with nothing... whereas if I go to a local public university, I'll have a much greater chance of succeeding, wont spend nearly as much money, and it will prepare me better for further education.


I have to disagree with you there. Thats not the way I was brought up. Its all well and good if you aren't taking it seriously, or you're simply racing to be around similar boats. But if I've committed myself to win, then I'm going to go balls out to do it. Competition is a guage of how well you've learned the ropes, and if I'm pulling DFL's one after another, then I need to find another sport / recreational activity.

Maugan, you have convinced me. You really don't have to keep giving all these excuses for not racing. The majority of catamaran sailors do not race and have no interest in racing. There's nothing wrong with being in the majority. I, for one, am never going to mention racing to you again. The fact that you love sailing and sailboats is the important thing. And it does not matter to the people on this forum whether you are a racer or a cruiser. We're just glad to have enthusiastic young people like you around, and we are glad to have your input and perspectives.

Mary:

I'm going to race... don't worry, I'm just not ready to take on the Smyth's of the catsailor world just yet. (Plus, when I'm through with this whole student thing, I'll have more opportunity to travel around I hope)

Hey dude,
lighten up, we will make it worth your while to come race with us. Oh and our sailors will spend hours talking to you about how to race rig and sail your boat. Its almost better than time on the water(almost). Not to mention the money you spend will buy you happiness, or at least some good food and alot of beer.
See my point?
Regattas are fun.
We have all been DFL, its no so bad.
We all have all learned from being DFL.
We all grow every time we race, more than just out pleasure sailing. Besides, When you are last you can actually see what the fast guys are doing!

Outback Cup, September 27-28 Columbia S Carolina(your home boys!)

David Mosley
www.seacats.org