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Re: new boat [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #225122
12/09/10 04:56 AM
12/09/10 04:56 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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Western Australia
older boats, older designs and older people both become "obsolete" at top level..

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Re: new boat [Re: Stewart] #225123
12/09/10 05:24 AM
12/09/10 05:24 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Originally Posted by Stewart
older boats, older designs and older people both become "obsolete" at top level..


That statement should become a classic!


Re: new boat [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #225137
12/09/10 10:48 AM
12/09/10 10:48 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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Western Australia
should have been older boats, older designs and older people all become "obsolete" at top level..

I'm old so my english skill is now showing how truly obsolete I really am...


On another advancement we have a carbon boat killer on the horizon.. FINALLY!!!!! even greater than SF potential.. Nanotube fibre!!

http://www.gizmag.com/new-nano-fibe...7dd3e0-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email

Re: new boat [Re: Stewart] #225175
12/10/10 04:21 AM
12/10/10 04:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 432
McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
S
Simon C Offline
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Simon C  Offline
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Posts: 432
McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
Not obselete... you just become a classic.

to quote someone I can't remember....

"Inside every old person is a young person wondering: what the *uck happened??"

Cheers


Simon
Taipan AUS341
Re: new boat [Re: Simon C] #225196
12/10/10 04:26 PM
12/10/10 04:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
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Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
In the A Class, the Boyer boats are obselete at the top level....... But don't worry, it won't happen in the F16 class.

Originally Posted by Stewart
older boats, older designs and older people both become "obsolete" at top level..


Well said lol


Re: new boat [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #225199
12/10/10 04:48 PM
12/10/10 04:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
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Matt M  Offline
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Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
In the A Class, the Boyer boats are obselete at the top level....... But don't worry, it won't happen in the F16 class.

Originally Posted by Stewart
older boats, older designs and older people both become "obsolete" at top level..


Well said lol


There is a difference between obsolete and out of style. Ultimately there is not much difference in top speed between any of the designs within a formula, the difference in many of the newer designs resides in the small refinement that makes some of them easier to drive at that top speed. Take a newly made (read still tight) MKIV made with a new rig, foils and the current layout and you would be hard pressed to see much if any significant performance gap.
The top guys in any class buy new regularly. It is a lot more fun to have a new design to play with when you do this than just a shinny version of the old – don’t you think?

Anyway you are never going to get rid of the guy who thinks he can just go purchase some more speed cause he can’t make his current equipment win. wink



Re: new boat [Re: Stewart] #225206
12/10/10 06:07 PM
12/10/10 06:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
W
waynemarlow Offline
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Posts: 893
Originally Posted by Stewart
should have been older boats, older designs and older people all become "obsolete" at top level..

I'm old so my english skill is now showing how truly obsolete I really am...


At least us oldies read the posts correctly and will admit mistakes when we do make them. grin

Re: new boat [Re: Matt M] #225216
12/11/10 06:09 AM
12/11/10 06:09 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
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Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by Matt M
Take a newly made (read still tight) MKIV made with a new rig, foils and the current layout and you would be hard pressed to see much if any significant performance gap.


Sorry Matt but I disagree strongly here as do the majority of A Class sailors. The difference between the MkIV Boyer and the Flyer when it first came out was significant. They are now saying it is a simular leap to the DNA. They became the must have boat because you needed it to compete at the pointy end.

Even the difference in the Multi Manufactuer OD class, Tornado the difference between the Reg White and the Marstroms were significant. I have done a fair bit of racing on the Reggies and Marstroms and can confirm they are chalk and cheese. Made me wonder why we tried to pursue for so long on a Reggie kitted out with all Marstom boards, beams, stick.

When the level of competition increases, the difference in equiptment becomes quiet noticeable.


Re: new boat [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #225223
12/11/10 09:26 AM
12/11/10 09:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
W
waynemarlow Offline
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Posts: 893
Perhaps it does or doesn't make a difference, but the constant perceived need to update by the boys at the top does allow really good boats to be sold down the chain to the middle ranking sailors at a price they can afford. Car sales have been built on this model since car production first began.

For guys whose sailing skills are such that these boats then become very affordiable training platforms to hone there skills before committing lots of funds for the latest all singing and dancing toy.

But when they do beat the latest high tech gizmo,and they will on occassion, it makes the win seem even more significant.

Re: new boat [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #225224
12/11/10 09:32 AM
12/11/10 09:32 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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Western Australia
mate even different factories, different gel coat colours and build days in SMOD classes have a following...

Re: new boat [Re: Stewart] #225243
12/11/10 11:22 AM
12/11/10 11:22 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 549
Knokke-Heist - Belgium
Gilo Offline
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Knokke-Heist - Belgium
All I know is Micha H won the Tybee on a Tiger 2 years ago. The Infusion was already well refined by then. The formula rulebox works pretty well not to make any boat obsolete or any boat a lot better then others.

Nice design though and great to have another boat in the ballpark!


Falcon F16 - BEL666
Boats: TheBoatShop.be
Stories: bladef16.blogspot.com
Re: new boat [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #225281
12/11/10 03:56 PM
12/11/10 03:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
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Matt M  Offline
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Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Steven,

If you think something is better then it likely is for you. The pointy end you refer to is not very deep though. I appologize in general for the offense but the A class tends to be Lemmings more than most. Look at the rush a year ago to all jump to the ASG3 and look how well that panned out for most. Not that the beam attachment on the DNA would not help the stiffness, but it's no game changer and the reviews I have heard have been somewhat mixed. The top guys are jumping on it and hence it will show well.

I have sailed the Tiger and and some of the newer designs like the infusion and Cap. Yes there is big difference in how they feel and sail. But the better sailor is still going to win. In my own shop, there is a huge difference in the Falcon over the Blade on the water. It feels smoother and easier to push, but does that win races or has it obsoleted anything. Its about the sailor.

Nobody wants to compete and have any inkling that their equipment may be holding them back. New designs in a formula box rule class will always be the standard. It just follows with so many of the other periferal factors. Boats do not lose races, people kill people or something like that. wink

Re: new boat [Re: Matt M] #225291
12/11/10 07:20 PM
12/11/10 07:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 2,921
Michigan
Originally Posted by Matt M
In my own shop, there is a huge difference in the Falcon over the Blade on the water. It feels smoother and easier to push, but does that win races or has it obsoleted anything.


shiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. My blade still has it going on. Amador and I literally traded spots alternately (he came out on top by one race) at the area D quals. It is clearly cause I am a superior sailor given his grade A ride. smile

seriously though, his boat is a work of art and I would love to get on it. And... my next boat will be a falcon. Just don't have the time to sail it to justify a new boat right now.

Last edited by PTP; 12/11/10 07:21 PM.
Re: new boat [Re: PTP] #225296
12/12/10 12:22 AM
12/12/10 12:22 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Seeker Offline
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Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Is this comparison between the Falcon and Blade using the 2nd gerneration Blade built at Vectorworks? Or is it in reference to the 3rd generation Blade being built by Formula Catamarans in Australia?

From what I understand, the 3rd generation Blade's on the water performance has evolved far beyond that of the 2nd generation Blade. To avoid confusion, stating which incarnation is being talked about would help keep a better apple to apple comparison.

Re: new boat [Re: Seeker] #225299
12/12/10 07:05 AM
12/12/10 07:05 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
I guess my boat is the second generation Blade from VWM. The hulls are at least... but I don't think anything else was changed. All the F16s seem to use the same mast anyway.

Re: new boat [Re: PTP] #225307
12/12/10 10:28 AM
12/12/10 10:28 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Same extrusion doesn't mean the same mast.


I'm boatless.
Re: new boat [Re: Karl_Brogger] #225319
12/12/10 12:34 PM
12/12/10 12:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 2,921
Michigan
yeah, true. has anyone really changed position of the spreaders in terms of height?

Re: new boat [Re: PTP] #225329
12/12/10 02:59 PM
12/12/10 02:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
I'm about positive that Matt is doing it differently than AHPC.

I think AHPC is higher with the diamonds, but I don't know that for certain.


I'm boatless.
Re: new boat [Re: PTP] #225347
12/13/10 12:35 AM
12/13/10 12:35 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
stealth doesnt.. There is a carbon rig on one blade platform in South Aussie

Re: new boat [Re: Matt M] #225455
12/15/10 02:19 AM
12/15/10 02:19 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by Matt M
Steven,

If you think something is better then it likely is for you. The pointy end you refer to is not very deep though. I appologize in general for the offense but the A class tends to be Lemmings more than most. Look at the rush a year ago to all jump to the ASG3 and look how well that panned out for most. Not that the beam attachment on the DNA would not help the stiffness, but it's no game changer and the reviews I have heard have been somewhat mixed. The top guys are jumping on it and hence it will show well.

I have sailed the Tiger and and some of the newer designs like the infusion and Cap. Yes there is big difference in how they feel and sail. But the better sailor is still going to win. In my own shop, there is a huge difference in the Falcon over the Blade on the water. It feels smoother and easier to push, but does that win races or has it obsoleted anything. Its about the sailor.

Nobody wants to compete and have any inkling that their equipment may be holding them back. New designs in a formula box rule class will always be the standard. It just follows with so many of the other periferal factors. Boats do not lose races, people kill people or something like that. wink


Yes, the A class guys can be a bit like Lemmings, however do you really think there is no significant difference between the MkIV Boyer and the Flyer?

As for the DNA, some of the best are convinced. Ashby so much that he got himself one despite his production of ASGs. What does that say. He does not want to be beaten by Brewin on a DNA. From what I have heard over here, the DNA guys are now trapping downwind. The platform has allowed them to do this in reasonable breeze where as it was too dangerous before hand.

There will always be those who jump towards the trend manufacture, however every now and then a manufacture will raise the bar a notch and others will have to follow suit or slide out the back door.

Many here keep rushing to “the sailor makes the biggest difference” which is true, but if you were investing, why would you put yourself at a disadvantage. Why should you have to sail better than the next guy to equal his performance.

New designs have and will come out, they will be quicker and over time. It may happen with gradual change or you may see a leap from one manufacturer. So really, how many people here disagree?


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