Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Are we still trying to be equal to the F18? #2285
09/06/01 03:11 AM
09/06/01 03:11 AM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A



I must admit I lost track of this issue. Are we still trying to be equal/comparable to F18?
<br>
<br>I can't remember the pro argument, but as I see it, there is no need for this. Why?
<br>IMO, when a Taipan, Bim, Stealth or other 16 Footer gets to race against an F18 boat, a rating system will be applied (e.g. Texel Rating in Germany). This happens if not enough F18s participate in a regatta to justify an F18 start. If there are enough, they will have their own F18 start and not let a 16 Footer compete.
<br>
<br>Maybe this comment is obsolete, but it just came to my mind. My perception over the last weeks was that there were to many ambitious goals for the F16HP that have no relevance for every day regatta sailing. This is one of them.
<br>
<br>Regards,
<br>Gebhard.<br><br>

--Advertisement--
Re: Are we still trying to be equal to the F18? #2286
09/06/01 03:29 AM
09/06/01 03:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
P
phill Offline

veteran
phill  Offline

veteran
P

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
Gebhard,
<br>Possibly your question was aimed at Wouter. But as I'm reading it I thought I may as well give a repsonse.
<br>My understanding is (folks,please correct me if I'm wrong)
<br>At first it would be good to be equal to the F18 so isolated F16HP boats can at least petition to start with F18s and race boat for boat. They probably won't let us compete for places this way but we could within ourselves feel good about the way we go and feel as though we are in the game.
<br>I see that as phase one of the class development.
<br>
<br>Phase two after the first season or so will be to look at what refinements can be made to the rules to speed us up.
<br>
<br>Personally I'd like to gather data that would help introduce the Hooter for one up sailing and racks that take the beam of the boat out to 3 metres. Just personal preference but I need data to convince myself and others that this is beneficial.
<br>
<br>Ultimately we can leave the F18s behind in more ways than one but at startup I think it advantageous to be able to say we are rated the same.
<br>
<br>If you have a different view it would be good to hear it.
<br>The more we talk and exchange ideas the more likely we can make this work.
<br>As they say "two heads is always better than one"
<br>Phill<br><br>

Attached Files
2281- (149 downloads)

I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Yes and No [Re: phill] #2287
09/06/01 04:29 AM
09/06/01 04:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Yes, the F16HP will always contain a setup that has an equal Texel (and often also ISAF) handicap number as the F18. This is very helpfull for local club races which hardly ever have a seperate F18 start or ranking. And the big regatta's like Texel and caribian regatta's have a general standing as well as seperate class standings.
<br>
<br>The F16HP class itself will grow into higher and higher performance in a controlled way. This particular path is fully independ of the F18 class.
<br>
<br>These to objectives don't have to conflict with eachother. Let me explain.
<br>
<br>The initial growth path is like this.
<br>
<br>We start with one setup :
<br>
<br>max 5 mtr. long
<br>max 2.5 mtr. wide (wings allowed and may than be wider overall)
<br>rated Sailarea main max 13 sq.mtr
<br>Rated Jib area max 3,1 sq.mtr. (exceptions for grandfathered boats)
<br>Max gen 17,5 sq.mtr.
<br>Max hoist 7,5 sq.mtr.
<br>
<br>(solo without the jib)
<br>
<br>This setup has the same Texel (Isaf) handicap as the F18's.
<br>
<br>This setup will be sailed by all until the weight equalization system bcomes operational. (with current momentum somewhere between a year and two years)
<br>
<br>And here comes the trick ! The above setup will become part of the weight equalization system but only for a light weight crew (and ofcourse solo sailing). The heavy weight crews will then be allowed to go max. in genaker area and jib area, they don't have too by the way. Thus we boost overall F16HP performance without letting go of the possibility of buying/ sailing a F18 equal F16HP. This setup will be the standard F16 HP configuration. I mean a heavy crew may in F16 HP races always sail the setup intended for or lighter crew right ?
<br>
<br>Why this configuration standard ? Because it is the best base configuration for both 1-up and 2-up sailing. The 1-up confiurations will only have the 17.5 sq.mtr. genaker. So selling the named configuration is most optimal from a flexibility point of view and most attractive for recreational sailors who mostly run club races and one big handicap regatta a year and tus benefit most from the preserved F18 equality in handicap numbers.
<br>
<br>The big boys who are active participants in the race scene will buy the same platform and trade in the small rig package for a bigger jib and genaker. Effectively only paying the extra cost of having more cloth, estimated at some US$ 100,-, peanuts really. If they want to retain the solo option than they have too buy a second genaker or opt to run heavy with the smaller one. Extra cost, US $700,- when buying a second genaker new.
<br>
<br>All other smaller things that make the F16 HP go fast (planing hulls, lighter sailcloth, etc, carbon masts) are not reflected in the calculated Texel handicap so there is no need to regulate these. We will just beat the F18's more often for a while until they implement the same technics. F18 (and iF20) is also an open class ofcourse and allows improvements. The truthfulness of F16HP handicap numbers to other one-design and stagnant classes is of not of much interest to the F16HP as the F18 or iF20 class number is. And both these two are pretty well covered.
<br>
<br>I think I have covered all things. Is this satisfactury ?
<br>
<br>BTW; has Taipan EU have a demo boat with 17 sq.mtr. genaker or something for someone to test drive ? I'm not speaking for myself, but for a person interested in the F16HP class and would like to test sail the Taipan too next to the Stealth cat.
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>

Attached Files
2282- (153 downloads)

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Thanks for answers ... [Re: Wouter] #2288
09/06/01 06:25 AM
09/06/01 06:25 AM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A



Phill and Wouter,
<br>
<br>thanks for answers. Yes, I agree, it might be good advertisement to be able to say "the F16HP has the same rating as an F18", but this is nothing new, at least not for the Taipan 4.9 (and the Stealth?)
<br>
<br>As it seems that we are currently one of the very few boats that regularly get the chance to race against F18 and/or iF20, please let me share a few of our experiences:
<br>
<br>- in flat water and good winds(both on trapeze), we do very well. This is partly because many of the crews we race against get "over powered" in these conditions, especially with the spinaker around the short courses, while we do not have problems to control this little boat.
<br>- my impression is that we do worse than the bigger boats in light winds and waves, mainly due to hull length and low weight. I say "we" because I cannot say whether this is because of US or THE BOAT. This is a potential argument against an F16 boat.
<br>
<br>- I must clearly state that an F16 boat is not for everyone. While the boats might be able to carry the weight of two male adults, people have to be physically quite flexible and also, because of the responsiveness of the boats, they have to be a lot quicker and concetrated than on an F18 or iF20. The boat is nothing for two men around 180 cm tall, 80 kg each, with jib and Spinnaker. Lets face it, there is just not enough room on the trampoline for all.
<br>
<br>And this is also the reason why I am quite sceptical about the progress of the F16HP class: When most of us men are at the age that they can give boats enough priority and are willing to spent the money for a superb performance catamaran, we usually are no longer young, light, flexible and quick with reactions. My experience with potential and real customers is, that the majority of those that show interest in the Taipan 4.9 are well above 45 and are NOT looking for a racing catamaran.
<br>
<br>Gebhard.<br><br>unreal sailor

Btw ... [Re: Wouter] #2289
09/06/01 06:38 AM
09/06/01 06:38 AM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A



I forgot:
<br>Not sure who you mean with "TAipan EU". I have 2 4.9s to test sail, but no 17.5 sqm spinnaker.<br><br>unreal sailor

Re: Thanks for answers ... #2290
09/07/01 05:05 AM
09/07/01 05:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
P
phill Offline

veteran
phill  Offline

veteran
P

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
Gebhard,
<br>
<br>From your post I get the impression that the F16HP is not heading the way you think it should.
<br>
<br>Is this correct?
<br>
<br>Do you agree with the F16HP concept?
<br>If so.-
<br>How do you think it would be best for things to proceed?
<br>
<br>I'm intersted in moving things along and therefore interested in the views of anyone interested in the existence and promotion of the F16HP concept.
<br>
<br>Phill
<br> <br><br>

Attached Files
2318- (158 downloads)

I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Thanks for answers ... [Re: phill] #2291
09/07/01 09:20 AM
09/07/01 09:20 AM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A



Phill,
<br>
<br>I had prepared a lengthy post with my point of view re. how attractive I and others find an F16 class and how this should carry on until I stumbled over the sentence "I'm intersted in moving things along and therefore interested in the views of anyone interested in the existence and promotion of the F16HP concept."
<br>
<br>I am not yet convinced that another class is necessary, at least not in our region. People are not so much into racing that they have the desire to form a class which promises fairer racing than TR.
<br>
<br>As I don't want to throw away the prepared text, I will send it to you privately.
<br>
<br>Regards,
<br>Gebhard.<br><br>

Attached Files
2324- (155 downloads)
Re: Thanks for answers ... #2292
09/07/01 01:02 PM
09/07/01 01:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 344
Arkansas, USA
Kirt Offline
enthusiast
Kirt  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 344
Arkansas, USA
Gebhard-
<br>Good to hear from you again! It has been awhile, I was starting to worry something had happened to you!
<br>I, also, am interested in your point of view and perspective.
<br>Personally, my attitude toward this "new" class is that it will supplement (that is offer another option) racing among the 16 foot boats that it applies to (Sort of like the fact the Hobie Tigers have strictly one-design Tiger races and trophies BUT all Tigers CAN, and many do, race and compete one-on-one, without any "handicap" issues, against other Formula 18 cats).
<br>No one would be "forced" to race in an F16 HP class, they would have the option of racing their boat in that class, "heads up", against similar boats rather than being delegated to a large, diverse handicap fleet or forced to try to find regattas where there might be enough of their own kind to field a one-design fleet.
<br>It's really an effort to promote one-on-one racing among a group of similar, but perhaps produced by different manufacturers, boats. This will give all these sailors some common ground and bonds ala the F18 class. Hopefully this will promote more participation in regattas, boat sales, and boat/rig/technique advances amonst these boats.
<br>Anyway, that's why I'm involved-
<br>
<br>Kirt<br><br>Kirt Simmons
<br>Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48


Kirt Simmons Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48
Good Analogy... #2293
09/07/01 10:33 PM
09/07/01 10:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 28
Florida
Jon Hamlet Offline
newbie
Jon Hamlet  Offline
newbie

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 28
Florida
Wow! I return from two months at our Colorado home to find the F16HP topic moving briskly along. I would like to add a few comments.
<br>
<br>Gebhard makes a very good point about the sailors who buy Taipans, etc. Jim Boyer and I discussed this very topic when he was here at my place two weeks ago. I can only speak for Florida, but Florida is a huge market for catamarans, relatively speaking, in the US. Florida, California, and Michigan are the mainstays in the boating market, with the emphasis on Florida and California because of our year round sailing conditions. The racing scene here in Florida is exactly as Gebhard describes. It was been reduced to those of us who are now older, and although we love to race, the Regattas of old are simply no more. I raced Hobies for years, primarily because at any Hobie Regatta here in Florida, we had 15 or more boats in a start. The competition was keen, and the boats were evenly matched because they were virtually all the same design, etc. Even then, I would estimate that 90% of the Hobies sold in Florida never raced, or perhaps raced once or twice. The market here was for the leisure beach sailor. This means the cats had to be “Beach Tough”. Sailing on and off the beach was a requirement, and we didn’t mind the added weight because 1) we were younger, 2) all the cats were more or less equal, and 3) there were usually lots of them at any regatta we chose to attend.
<br>
<br>A Hobie regatta of 10-15 years ago consisted of usually over 100 cats, and the main events often exceeded 300. Now we do well to have 20-25 cats and that now includes Nacras, Prindles, and every other kind of Cat around.
<br>
<br>Given this scenario, it seems to me that the only way we can continue racing is to seek some kind of parity so that we can race fairly equal. I see the Formula 16, 18, 20 etc. as the best solution to this problem. I think we need to be careful and not fragment the class into too many sub-groups given the fact that we can’t scrape up enough to even have our own starts.
<br>
<br>There are pockets of cats here and there that exist exactly for the reason that we all prefer to race even up on the same boat, equipment, class rules etc.
<br>
<br>I see the F16HP as a UNI with spinnaker, and a two up sloop with spinnaker. Equalizing the boats by crew weight and jib size seems a logical and necessary method of accomplishing this.
<br>
<br>I read that someone criticized guys who buy INTER 17’s, but I will tell you that heavy, solid Cat is great in Florida when you sail on and off beaches and don’t have a fiberglass shop in your garage. Most of my friends want to enjoy sailing, not repair their boats all the time. The INTER’s seem to have found a niche for this since there seem to be pockets of them all over the state.
<br>
<br>Wouter, my compliments to you on all your hard work in getting this class going. I am back now and will again be sailing quite often off this beautiful sand beach out front and will continue my experiments with spinnaker rigging, mast rake, etc as I started in the Spring. I’ll keep you posted as I have Kirt and Phill.
<br>
<br>Jon Hamlet
<br>Taipan 4.9 #217
<br><br><br>

Attached Files
2364- (149 downloads)
Re Inter 17 [Re: Jon Hamlet] #2294
09/09/01 04:19 AM
09/09/01 04:19 AM

A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
Anonymous OP
Unregistered
A



Jon,
<br>
<br>don't be misled by thinking heavy = durable.
<br>The hulls of Inters are not more durable than those of other boats with sandwich hulls. Due to their weight, they are even more susceptible to damage on the beach because there is more weight pressing down on that one rock...
<br>
<br>So, if somebody needs a rock solid boat, neither Taipans nor Inters nor Hobie Foxes/Tigers are a good choice. One will have to buy a H16/18 P16/18 (I'm sure there are more cats with massive laminate around).
<br>
<br>Just my experience about Inters (we owned one ourselves),
<br>Gebhard.<br><br>

Attached Files
2383- (144 downloads)
Re: Re Inter 17 #2295
09/09/01 09:10 PM
09/09/01 09:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 28
Florida
Jon Hamlet Offline
newbie
Jon Hamlet  Offline
newbie

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 28
Florida
Good point Gebhard. As I said, most of my experience has been with the Hobie line. I'm just relating what I've heard from friends who have INTER 17's. I did own the company that built the Miami Vice cars, and I understand completely about weight and strength. <br><br>

Attached Files
2399- (130 downloads)
What about me Jon ? I go away for just one week .. [Re: Jon Hamlet] #2296
09/15/01 09:48 AM
09/15/01 09:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
What about me Jon ? I go away for just one week and find that I need to catch up. Nice to have you back.
<br>
<br>
<br>>>Given this scenario, it seems to me that the only way we can continue racing is to seek some kind of parity so that we can race fairly equal. I see the Formula 16, 18, 20 etc. as the best solution to this problem. I think we need to be careful and not fragment the class into too many sub-groups given the fact that we can’t scrape up enough to even have our own starts.
<br>
<br>I refer to the Formula of Formulas principle which still is at the heart of the F16HP. This Equal Performance Class principle is implemented in the F16HP by making it equal (or at least very close approximation of this) with respect of F18's. The F16HP will ofcourse have the extra of having a solo genaker branch a la A-cat. I see the F16HP as the class that completes the Formula framework. Very manly and very big boys => iF20, all 2-up crews => F18, 2-up crews as well as 1-up sailors which just sail or race recreationally => F16hp (True racing is still F18 and Tornado)
<br>
<br>F16 Hp in this scheme is :
<br>
<br>- Entry class to F18 and iF20.
<br>- The only Formula class for genaker solo sailing
<br>- The most flexible and affordable formula class for recreational (working up to competitive) sailing.
<br>
<br>That will be the place of the F16HP
<br>
<br>Ofcourse the fact that F16HP is equal to F18 will mean that they can start together. And also be scored together when the group of sailors agree to do so. Hence your defense against to many fleets.
<br>
<br>>>I read that someone criticized guys who buy INTER 17’s, but I will tell you that heavy, solid Cat is great in Florida when you sail on and off beaches and don’t have a fiberglass shop in your garage. Most of my friends want to enjoy sailing, not repair their boats all the time. The INTER’s seem to have found a niche for this since there seem to be pockets of them all over the state.
<br>
<br>
<br>I Think the I-17 found a nice for a solo boat that couldn't be filled by A-cats for many still think lightweight equals durability. Ironic example, My P16 is lighter than a standard I-17 and I can swear that it is not less durable than the I-17. This is why I don't see why the I-17 had to be heavier despite new technics in composite construction.
<br>
<br>>>Wouter, my compliments to you on all your hard work in getting this class going. ... will continue my experiments with spinnaker rigging, mast rake, etc as I started in the Spring. I’ll keep you posted as I have Kirt and Phill.
<br>
<br>Many thanks for the compliment, it is one of the things that keeps me going; I'm very much looking forward to your results and experiences. And I can't wait to cross check them with Phill, Kirt, John P and my own experiences. I had another fruitfull week in Greece. Sailed the Hobie dragon sloop with genaker solo in windforce 2 to 5 with strong gusts. As you know I'm a strong believer of the manual genaker system and on the dragon I had no problem with setting (4 seconds) and restrieving (7 seconds) its genaker, this is including steering the boat to the proper course. I even got a few remarks afterwards of how fast I retrieved the genaker. Mind you the new Hobie genaker bag is a great help it saves seconds. I was without a doubt outperforming the snuffer systems on the mono's and skiffs.
<br>
<br>Wouter
<br><br><br>

Attached Files
2532- (151 downloads)

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands

Moderated by  Damon Linkous, phill, Rolf_Nilsen 

Search

Who's Online Now
1 registered members (TimTT), 603 guests, and 90 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Darryl, zorro, CraigJ, PaulEddo2, AUS180
8150 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,404
Posts267,055
Members8,150
Most Online2,167
Dec 19th, 2022
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1