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WOW... how far can RC standards slip? #228997
02/23/11 02:16 PM
02/23/11 02:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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From Scuttlebutt
The North American Windsurfing Championship was held February 17-20 in beautiful Cozumel, Mexico, with the Techno 293 (U15 and U17), Formula Experience, RS:X Men, and RS:X Women classes participating. The event will long be remembered for the local hospitality, breathtaking venue, and camaraderie amongst the young sailors. The event will also be marked by the joyful ending to a rescue at sea by a 13 year old American Techno sailor of an 18 year old Mexican girl in the RS:X class.

In an emotional ceremony, Rasmus Sayre (Vineyard Haven, MA) was awarded "Hero of the Regatta" for his outstanding seamanship and sportsmanship in rescuing Nicole Level (Cancun, MX) who ended up winning the RS:X Youth Women and qualifying for the Youth World Champs in Croatia.

It was a dangerous situation on the far outside of the course when the joint between Nicole's board and rig failed, and she lost both her board and rig in the big waves. Nicole was left swimming alone in the strong off shore current, and was wearing no life jacket. "I thought I was going to die," said Level. "I'm never going on the water without a life jacket again."

As Rasmus rounded the final turning mark in the Techno 293 fleet, he happened to see a hand frantically waving at the crest of a wave. He immediately dropped out of his first place position in the U15 Techno Class, sailed out to her, and Nicole, completely exhausted, struggled onto Rasmus' board. Rasmus attempted to sail the two of them to shore but was unable in the big waves, and they were being swept further out to sea by the 4 knot current.

Luckily, an alert fishing vessel with high lookout tower noticed Rasmus' sail from a distance. The fishing vessel came alongside, and Nicole had regained enough strength to swim to the boat and was taken safely back to shore. Rasmus was then able to sail to shore alone. Nicole's board was never found.

The conditions in Cozumel provided excellent preparation for the Techno 293 World Championships at St. Francis YC (CA) in July where over 200 kids are expected.

Complete report: http://www.techno293.org/page0001v01news313.htm
Results: http://tinyurl.com/Windsurf-Mexico-022211

No life jackets... at all... (makes that USCG vs EU jacket dispute trivial...)

A kids regatta in unprotected water without adequate safety boats...

It is only going to take one disaster with a loss of life and the regulatory sanctions will effect us all.... loose a kid.... OMG..... Ssssh..


crac.sailregattas.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: Mark Schneider] #229001
02/23/11 03:07 PM
02/23/11 03:07 PM
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brucat Offline
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I know nothing about this event, or anyone involved, BUT...

Cough... cough... RRS 4 anyone? cough... cough...

Do you know something in this article that we don't? I don't see any mention of the number of safety boats, what the wind conditions were (other than mention of "large waves"), etc.

This was a North American championship. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they had boats on the water, and that the competitors were pretty good.

Sometimes, bad things happen to good people (the "victim" won the event), and no one is close by to help. Fortunately, there was another competitor who jumped in, and another boat to help get them ashore.

EDIT: BTW, the "victim" was 18, technically not a "kid" (depends who you ask)...

I highly doubt canceling the event was an option.

As for the PFD, you can't fix stupid, altough in this case, it appears to have fixed itself. Interestingly, the NOR specified that PFDs would be required if code flag Y was flown. That's one of my least favorite things to put on the RC.

Definitely not something that you'd want on a resume though...

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 02/23/11 03:53 PM.
Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: brucat] #229003
02/23/11 03:36 PM
02/23/11 03:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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I know where there will be 200 potential new, young cat racers in July!

Any of you left coasties available to introduce them to cats?


Blade F16
#777
Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: brucat] #229006
02/23/11 04:02 PM
02/23/11 04:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Being Lucky is not a policy or a program!

I don't know about boards... but the Y flag is about wearing the pfd... not leave it on the beach... since she won the event in the end... I assume the board rules are different since I now realize that she was not DSQd,
(would love to hear the reasoning behind this rule for boards)

Even so.. They have junior classes on the water... The safety standards are higher. How the RC would not fly the Y flag is the specific issue. If she is happily bobbing out to sea in a 4 knot current with her jacket on ... this is still a major problem for the RC.... assuming they figure it out before it is too late. (Two A cat sailors faced similar circumstances... one swimming... the other drifting.)

Obviously, the patrol boats on the course did not get the job done since she was rescued by the board sailor and the fishing boat. So... stuff happens..despite the best plan.

Perhaps we should consider hand held radio's being required for buoy racing. They are now much cheaper then back in the day.

Why a rule addition... Yes it's overkill for a protected lake... but like a blanket rule on life jacket wearing... it eliminates having to make a decision. Oh.. I want to race... I wear the PFD and have a radio in the pocket and make sure my boat is class legal. For the OA... they can know what each sailor has available to them on the course or to and from the course.

In the tradeoffs... wear the jacket and carry the handheld is better then trying to guess; how many, what kind of boat, and how well trained the patrol and mark boat people on the course need to be.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: Mark Schneider] #229007
02/23/11 04:26 PM
02/23/11 04:26 PM
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brucat Offline
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Again, I wasn't there so I can't speak to the quality or decisions of the RC, and there is probably more to the story (there always is). I've personally witnessed, from more than one Signal Boat (at more than one major event, with lots of assets on the water), some pretty gnarly stuff happen; and self-rescue (or rescue by fellow competitor) is sometimes the only real option.

I do agree that everyone should wear a PFD and carry a VHF. But, those are just my opinions based on my personal experiences. Good luck getting those things mandated.

Mike

Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: Mark Schneider] #229008
02/23/11 05:08 PM
02/23/11 05:08 PM
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srm Offline
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I've windsurfed for about 15 years and I raced windsurf boards (Formula boards) for about five years. Right or wrong, lifejackets are simply not part of the culture in windsurfing and not required by law in many areas. Most municipalities view a windsurf board as a type of surfboard and have gotten around lifejacket laws on the the theory that the rider could have to "duck under a wave" to get out through the surf (even though 90% of windsurfers never even ride in breaking waves). I can guarantee if the RC had required all windsurfers to wear lifejackets, they would have heard pissing and moaning from every competitor there.

Generally speaking, as long as the rig stays connected to the board, it will act as a sea anchor if the rider goes down and prevent the board from drifting away. Obviously, in this case, the board and rig did separate, but this is actually very rare as long as the equipment is in good condition and properly assembled.

In windsurfing, there are two hard and fast rules - 1) Never sail in offshore winds, 2) Never sail farther from shore than you can swim. A life jacket would have certainly been a good idea, but even with a PFD, the sailor still would have been in a dangerous, life threating situation.

sm

Last edited by srm; 02/23/11 05:09 PM.
Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: brucat] #229010
02/23/11 05:16 PM
02/23/11 05:16 PM
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catandahalf Offline
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I'll chime in on this since I have been involved with windsurfing race management and worked with the US Boardsailing Team in the late eighties.

Friends and neighbors, wearing a USCG pfd over a harness is really not in the best interest of performance or safety, and Gebi will never carry a radio with him on his kiteboard unless he might be using it for coaching.

Too bad that the mast was not tethered to the board. I find it a titch ironic that the Class winner lost her board and had to be rescued by, I presume, Nevin Sayre's son. That had to be soooo embarrassing...

You think women trimmers on Melges 24s are SCOTW - you should have seen the gals' pumping skills and endurance during the Miami OCR. PFDs and radios for windsurfing...are you kidding?

Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: catandahalf] #229011
02/23/11 05:34 PM
02/23/11 05:34 PM
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brucat Offline
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No, not kidding. All comfort and performance aside, when you're separated from a boat (board, whatever), being able to float and call for help seem to be two things I'd like to have.

Like I said, it will (likely) never be mandated, but I'd like to think that with today's technology, there simply has to be a way to incorporate flotation and radios in a cost-effective, non-burdensome way (leave the USCG/CE argument aside just for the sake of discussion).

If the sailors demand it, it will happen (shouldn't need to be a top-down decision).

Mike

Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: brucat] #229013
02/23/11 06:02 PM
02/23/11 06:02 PM
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srm Offline
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It definitely "can" be done. The argument that the lifejacket gets in the way of the harness hook is pretty much bogus and is really just another "excuse" not to use a PFD. I sailed for many years on a lake that does require windsurfers to wear a PFD, and it most certainly can be done with no loss of performance or discomfort. With the right PFD, it is basically a non-issue, especially if you're using a seat harness (which virtually all racers use). A waist harness may be a different story.

As I said, it's largely a cultural issue. The majority of windsurfers don't wear PFDs, are not required by law to wear them, and simply don't want to wear them. Rig separations are very rare, so this type of incident simply isn't that common.

Tethering the mast to the board with a leash of some sort has been done in the past and brings about a whole other set of issues.

sm

Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: srm] #229025
02/23/11 08:55 PM
02/23/11 08:55 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Wow! (again)... live and learn.. Thanks SRM for the insights about Boards, I agree with Brucat about PFD's and radio's,... I am just amazed at Windsurfing practice..

In a board race in open water... does the RC count heads around the course at each mark?.. It's tough to spot a cat flipped over...a board and sailor in the water in distress would be very difficult.. What is the practice to keep track of sailors, juniors?

The Brits and the RORC have standards for racing and safety... Some US classes have published standards for RC and Safety (which in the US insurance market would be a problem in a crisis). What to the windsurfers have for safety recommendations.
Thanks


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: Mark Schneider] #229026
02/23/11 09:32 PM
02/23/11 09:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
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Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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Why does any of this come under the responsibility of the RC?

Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: Mark Schneider] #229027
02/23/11 09:38 PM
02/23/11 09:38 PM
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catandahalf Offline
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How much time have you spent watching windsurfing wave sailing slalom races or tow - in surfing footage?

Now, what are we going to do with SUPs? They are 'racing' in regattas for big prize money. According to Forbes magazine the SUP industry will hit 6B this year.

How do surfers endure wipeouts in seventy foot + waves in Europe and survive without a race committee?:-)?

They use flotation vests and jet skis.

They are at home in the sea; that's for sure.

Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: rhodysail] #229028
02/23/11 10:26 PM
02/23/11 10:26 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Well.... on the one hand... you are correct and I take your point of view... the RC is there to put on the race... the sailors take all responsibility to race or continue racing.... Should a mark boat choose to offer assistance... great! but the responsibility rests with the sailors to be out there and take care of themselves.

Then on the other hand... the experienced PRO's come back and argue for the number of safety boats, etc. and whether they should continue racing in XX knots etc for safety reasons... Competitors expect a certain number of boats on the course... and on and on it goes.

So when you have a competitor drifting out to sea... I think you have to reconsider the situation, practices and standards of the sailors and RC .. ... Should the RC be responsible for counting heads at the marks and keeping a lookout? Should we raise the equipment requirement...(carry a hand held)

I raised the issue because I was wrong and assumed that windsurfers like all other sailors were required to at least carry a PFD.

As I noted... the Brits have actual safety standards that must be met. The US does not.
I know two A cat sailors who were in similar situations as the young lady... One swimming for the beach. The time to consider this stuff is now... well before it hits the fan...

Personally, I think every single handed sailor must carry a hand held on their person when they leave the beach. I think it's irresponsible for a skipper to leave the beach without a handheld on the boat for two man boats. My big boat skipper gives every new to the boat sailor a safety run through ... what's where, fire stuff, procedures and practices...

Issues like the windsurfer drifting out to sea grab your attention and may get somebody to change their practice when they think about the options and responsibilities of all concerned.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: Mark Schneider] #229029
02/23/11 10:46 PM
02/23/11 10:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
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Santa Cruz, CA
SurfCityRacing Offline
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No offense meant here...

It's a typical nanny-state, litigious way of thinking that would allow one to blame the Race Committee if someone got hurt or died in ANY type of race. Everyone, over 18, should be held completely responsible for their own safety. They chose to drag their boat to the event of their own free will, therefore they can also choose to not participate of their own free will. They can choose to not go out, not wear a PFD, etc. It's not the RCs fault if something happens.

The line should be drawn when the actions of that person impact the safety of others, which could be argued.

To me, more people should be left to the wolves. Especially those that choose to not maintain their rig, wear PFDs, carry radios, or take otherwise simple precautions to at least mitigate failure. Darwin's a tough SOB.

But, geeeez, blame the RC? That's ridiculous.

Oh yea, and this event was in Mexico. What happens in Mexico, stays in Mexico. Protocol breached! We should've never known about it.



grin

Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: Mark Schneider] #229030
02/23/11 10:53 PM
02/23/11 10:53 PM
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catandahalf Offline
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FYI,

Since I have played the game, and windsurfing has transformed into kiteboarding in this country I have lost touch to some degree. Check out the Class Rules for the T293ers. I watched the video and discovered many of the competitors were wearing flotation devices.

I could not find a copy of the SIs (event over), but the Class Rules and the NOR point at PFDs with the onus on the SIs for youth sailors.

http://www.internationalwindsurfing.com/userfiles/documents/N_Americans_Cozumel_2011_NoR.pdf

http://www.internationalwindsurfing.com/userfiles/documents/T293_Championship_Rules.pdf

Without a more detailed account of the incident it might be hard to blame the RC for letting down their safety picket.

Very worthy investigation...Robbie Naish was twelve years old when he won the first Windsurfing Worlds, and they did not even allow harnesses. He won it again the next year with a broken arm under the same Class Rules.


Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: Mark Schneider] #229031
02/23/11 11:31 PM
02/23/11 11:31 PM
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Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Around here PFDs are mandatory racing or not, period.

Also, we usually ask sailors to store their cell phones inside a watertight bag and keep them in their PFD pocket or tied to them. Direct communication with the rescue boat helps locate a swimmer, who usually sees the boat before it can see him. Coverage must be available, which is not a problem here.

I guess for a Windsurfer, Kite, Moth, Cat or Skiff, the risk of a high speed impact is a greater concern than the risks covered by a standard PFD. Comfortable high flotation impact vests with built in (gps?) communication are the future replacement of simple vests.


Luiz
Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: SurfCityRacing] #229032
02/23/11 11:54 PM
02/23/11 11:54 PM
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california
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Originally Posted by SurfCityRacing
No offense meant here...

It's a typical nanny-state, litigious way of thinking that would allow one to blame the Race Committee if someone got hurt or died in ANY type of race. Everyone, over 18, should be held completely responsible for their own safety. They chose to drag their boat to the event of their own free will, therefore they can also choose to not participate of their own free will. They can choose to not go out, not wear a PFD, etc. It's not the RCs fault if something happens.

The line should be drawn when the actions of that person impact the safety of others, which could be argued.

To me, more people should be left to the wolves. Especially those that choose to not maintain their rig, wear PFDs, carry radios, or take otherwise simple precautions to at least mitigate failure. Darwin's a tough SOB.

But, geeeez, blame the RC? That's ridiculous.

Oh yea, and this event was in Mexico. What happens in Mexico, stays in Mexico. Protocol breached! We should've never known about it.



grin


Yea what happens in Mexico stays in Mexico , so no need for comp tips north of the border. OOPS


Richard Vilvens
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Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: F-18 5150] #229068
02/24/11 09:34 PM
02/24/11 09:34 PM
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Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
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SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
Guys,

For years I have carried my Verizon cell phone w/ me sealed inside a waterproof bag since the Verizon cell phone coverage is better then that of a VHF radio were I sail. Last year Verizon started to offer the "ruggedized WATERPROOF Casio Brigade" cell phone ... now it is no Blackberry/I-Phone/Droid w/ apps ... but it does Txt's and E-Mails .... will survive/work when I'm in the water .... and therefore hopefully can/will save my life. And that's the one reason above all else as to why I purchased this particular cell phone!!! (as I spend alot of time near/on the water....)

Harry

Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: HMurphey] #229074
02/25/11 09:17 AM
02/25/11 09:17 AM
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Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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Originally Posted by HMurphey
Verizon cell phone coverage is better then that of a VHF radio were I sail.
I see whole new commercial spot, "Can you hear me now?"


Kris Hathaway
Re: WOW... how far can RC standards slip? [Re: Kris Hathaway] #229075
02/25/11 10:14 AM
02/25/11 10:14 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
SurfCityRacing Offline
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A couple of things about cell phones...
Many Coastie and Harbor Patrol boats have RDFs on board. There's nothing like having a direct line of communication with the guy that's going to pluck your wet, sopping butt out of the drink. I'd opt for VHF in most scenarios, though a cell is a good second choice.

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