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Re: Tsunami [Re: Rhino1302] #229654
03/12/11 02:07 PM
03/12/11 02:07 PM
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Unfortunately this will likely kill nuclear power for good though.
Not that it should since certainly many more people die mining coal each year for power plants than have ever died from nuclear accidents. TMI was minimal and that effectively killed new nuclear power for 30 years.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Tsunami [Re: PTP] #229656
03/12/11 02:22 PM
03/12/11 02:22 PM
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pgp Offline
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CNN is saying, "millions without water". That's the scariest thing I've ever heard! How the hell do you get water to millions in a short time?


Pete Pollard
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'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Tsunami [Re: Rhino1302] #229661
03/12/11 07:22 PM
03/12/11 07:22 PM
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Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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Quote
The Fukushima reactor that's in trouble is an older design than Three Mile Island, and lacks the concrete containment dome that TMI and other more modern reactors have.


Where did you get this information? I find that extremely hard to believe given Japan's history of contributions in engineering. Not to mention everything the world witnessed when Chernobyl melted down.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: Tsunami [Re: TeamChums] #229665
03/12/11 10:09 PM
03/12/11 10:09 PM
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Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
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CNN just interviewed Bill Nye the Science Guy re the exploding Japanese reactor. Nye stated helium is sometimes released but apparently he never heard of hydrogen being generated inside a runaway reactor- water comes apart under high intensity radiation to make hydrogen inside the reactor. That is why the H2 bubble inside the Three Mile Island reactor forced water down uncovering the core which "slumped": TMI had no little tube with a valve up inside to let the H2 out.
Ditto here I betcha. Why didn't they have a large water tank up on a hillside to flood the reactor- no electricity involved????

Oh Well, U.S. Rep. Michelle Bachman doesn't know the difference between Concord NH and Concord, Mass.

Last edited by dacarls; 03/12/11 10:10 PM.

Dacarls:
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Re: Tsunami [Re: dacarls] #229669
03/13/11 02:31 AM
03/13/11 02:31 AM
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What I dont understand is why you would build a nuclear powerstation by the sea in a country that is known to have tsunamis?? (its even a Japaness word!).
I understand the advantages (quick access to cooling water) but to me it seems like an unnecesary risk to build it there.

Re: Tsunami [Re: Tony_F18] #229680
03/13/11 07:19 AM
03/13/11 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Tony_F18
What I dont understand is why you would build a nuclear powerstation by the sea in a country that is known to have tsunamis?? (its even a Japaness word!).
I understand the advantages (quick access to cooling water) but to me it seems like an unnecesary risk to build it there.

or at least put some of the generators above the likely flood line

Re: Tsunami [Re: PTP] #229683
03/13/11 09:18 AM
03/13/11 09:18 AM
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pgp Offline
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It seems most nukes are near water. Three Mile Island. I think all the Florida plants are very near water.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Tsunami [Re: pgp] #229684
03/13/11 09:53 AM
03/13/11 09:53 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
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They need all that sea water (or lake water) for the cooling system, which is why they are near large bodies of water. When I was in high school (1973-77) they were building the "Seabrook Station" which is a Nuke Plant in Seabrook, NH, just 3 miles down the road from where I grew up.

Lots of kids dropped out of high school to go work construction there as they were paying about $10/hr. for unskilled labor, pouring cement, tieing up re-bar, etc. At that time I think I was making about $1.85/hr. as a bus boy in a local steak house.

Anyway, there were always large protest marches against the site, as it was built right on the south NH shore, with huge (10' diameter) cooling tunnels which ran underground for about 3 miles out to the sea floor, intake and outflow tunnels. Everyone was worried about what might happen if they ever had a "Meltdown" and all that sea water became contaminated, flowing right out into the prime fishing and lobster grounds. The fish loved the warmer water coming out of the tunnel, and that soon became a prime fishing spot!

The cold seawater goes into the plant and through a heat exchanger, radiator type system, then right back into the ocean.

All the protests caused many construction shutdowns, the plant ended up being finished years late of schedule and billions over budget. So much so that the NH Power company had to SELL the electricity to all the other New England states just to try to recover the losses!

One thing I've been wondering about ever since way back in high school, why don't they just build the reactor UNDER GROUND?!

I mean, if there's going to be a Meltdown and/or explosion, with a radio active cloud, wouldn't it be better if the entire reactor vessel was already 20' underground? How hard is it to dig a deep hole first, build it, then cover it up?

More about Seabrook Station:

http://www.hampton.lib.nh.us/hampton/history/randall/chap18/randall18_4.htm


Blade F16
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Re: Tsunami [Re: Timbo] #229685
03/13/11 10:03 AM
03/13/11 10:03 AM
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I've no idea about underground building in N.H. But in Florida it's a problem because of the very low water tables. Many places in Florida, a 20' hole would have 10' of water in it.

In the '70s underground utilities was all the rage here but they had lots of problems with groundwater affecting phone and power lines. Don't know what the outcome was. My service is all aerial except sewer and water of course.

Oops! My phone lines are buried.

Last edited by pgp; 03/13/11 10:06 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Tsunami [Re: pgp] #229686
03/13/11 10:21 AM
03/13/11 10:21 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Well I was thinking if they can build a reactor containment vessel that will keep contaminated water in, it will also keep the water table out. Yes, it would be more expensive to build vs. above ground, but I would think it would also be much safer in the event of an emergency.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Tsunami [Re: Timbo] #229687
03/13/11 10:42 AM
03/13/11 10:42 AM
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I suppose it could, but I'm not an engineer. Sounds even more complicated though.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Tsunami [Re: Timbo] #229688
03/13/11 10:46 AM
03/13/11 10:46 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
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And here's another question I have not heard addressed on the news yet, what are they going to do with all the seawater they are now pumping in to cool down the reactor? Won't all that water be contaminated?

So...where are they going to put it?

And one more thing I have not heard mentioned yet on the news: In the past year, we've had a volcano blow in Iceland, big earthquake hit Haiti, then one in New Zealand, now a big on in Japan...so where's the next one going to hit? Alaska? San Fran? LA?

I have not been glued to the TV but I have not heard anything from the USGS about what's coming next, anyone heard any predictions?


Blade F16
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Re: Tsunami [Re: Timbo] #229689
03/13/11 10:55 AM
03/13/11 10:55 AM
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Attached Files
new madrid.JPG (225 downloads)
Last edited by pgp; 03/13/11 11:33 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Tsunami [Re: Tony_F18] #229700
03/13/11 08:13 PM
03/13/11 08:13 PM
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Tony_F18
What I dont understand is why you would build a nuclear powerstation by the sea in a country that is known to have tsunamis?? (its even a Japaness word!).
I understand the advantages (quick access to cooling water) but to me it seems like an unnecesary risk to build it there.


considering the scale of the disaster...I think it fared quite well considering it's proximity to the wiped out areas...if nothing else, it's still standing much less able to maintain some level of control.


Jake Kohl
Re: Tsunami [Re: Timbo] #229701
03/13/11 08:16 PM
03/13/11 08:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
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Originally Posted by Timbo
And here's another question I have not heard addressed on the news yet, what are they going to do with all the seawater they are now pumping in to cool down the reactor? Won't all that water be contaminated?

So...where are they going to put it?

And one more thing I have not heard mentioned yet on the news: In the past year, we've had a volcano blow in Iceland, big earthquake hit Haiti, then one in New Zealand, now a big on in Japan...so where's the next one going to hit? Alaska? San Fran? LA?

I have not been glued to the TV but I have not heard anything from the USGS about what's coming next, anyone heard any predictions?


The cooling water, just like the steam they use to generate electricity, does not come in direct contact with the fission areas and it's quite safe to discharge the water. They got the rods back into the core and the fission stopped before they started having cooling problems. They only need to keep cooling the core to absorb the residual heat left over from reaction...though, if they can't cool it, it would possible melt through to the cooling channels...and then we have problems. Chernobyl never got close to getting the rods back in the core and they couldn't even stop the heat generating fission (added to which they were very slow to evacuate anyone).

According to a friend of mine who was involved with Nuclear submarine engineering in the navy and spent a considerable amount of time over there, Japan has extremely high standards when it comes to nuclear safety (considering their past)...in fact, their standards are quite higher than our own.


Jake Kohl
Re: Tsunami [Re: Jake] #229702
03/13/11 08:19 PM
03/13/11 08:19 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA
dave mosley Offline
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Check this out, kinda Burmuda triangleish

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-KHjKFAtDs


The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





Re: Tsunami [Re: pgp] #229707
03/13/11 10:40 PM
03/13/11 10:40 PM
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Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
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That 1895 earthquake I think I remember reading somewhere that the Mississippi flowed backwards for three days or some non-sense.


I'm boatless.
Re: Tsunami [Re: Karl_Brogger] #229709
03/13/11 10:56 PM
03/13/11 10:56 PM
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pgp Offline
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"February 7, 1812, 0945 UTC (4:45 a.m.); (M ~7.48.0[2]) epicenter near New Madrid, Missouri. New Madrid was destroyed. At St. Louis, Missouri, many houses were severely damaged, and their chimneys were toppled. This shock was definitively attributed to the Reelfoot Fault by Johnston and Schweig. Uplift along a segment of this reverse fault created temporary waterfalls on the Mississippi at Kentucky Bend, created waves that propagated upstream, and caused the formation of Reelfoot Lake by obstructing streams in Lake County, Tennessee.[3]"


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Tsunami [Re: Jake] #229714
03/14/11 02:24 AM
03/14/11 02:24 AM
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From what I understand is that they will pump saltwater straight into the reactor core if the normal cooling systems wont cool it enough.
If that happens it will never be able to startup again and the whole plant is a writeoff.
The building that houses the actual core is built underground so I guess that might help with containing the radiotion.

There are plans to build another nuclear powerstation overhere in Holland but I'm guessing the current situation doesnt help getting public support.
Better stick to windmills!

Re: Tsunami [Re: Tony_F18] #229722
03/14/11 07:51 AM
03/14/11 07:51 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
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“an island in the Pacific....
U.S. aircraft carrier exposed to radiation
Experts debate wind-borne peril to U.S.
By William J. Broad
New York Times
Updated: 03/13/2011 11:56:30 PM CDT

The Pentagon was expected to announce that the aircraft carrier Ronald Reagan, which is sailing in the Pacific, passed through a radioactive cloud from stricken nuclear reactors in Japan, causing crew members on deck to receive a month's worth of radiation in about an hour, government officials said Sunday.

The officials added that American helicopters flying missions about 60 miles north of the damaged reactors became coated with particulate radiation that had to be washed off.

There was no indication any of the military personnel had experienced ill effects from the exposure. (Everyone is exposed to a small amount of natural background radiation.)

But the episodes showed that the prevailing winds were picking up radioactive material from crippled reactors in northeastern Japan. Ever since an earthquake struck Japan on Friday, authorities worldwide have been laying plans to determine what, if any, danger radioactive plumes could pose to people.

Blogs were churning with alarm. But officials insisted that unless the quake-damaged nuclear plants deteriorated into full meltdown, any radiation that reached the United States would be too weak to do any harm.

Washington had "hypothetical plots" for worst-case plume dispersal within hours of the start of the crisis, a senior official said Sunday. The aim, the official added, was "more to help Japan" than the United States, since few experts foresaw high levels of radiation reaching the West Coast.

For now, the prevailing winds over Japan were blowing eastward across the Pacific. If they continue to do so, international stations for radioactive tracking at Wake or Midway Islands might detect radiation later this week, said Annika Thunborg, a spokeswoman for an arm of the United Nations in Vienna that monitors the planet for spikes in radioactivity.

"At this point, we have not picked up anything" in detectors midway between Japan and Hawaii, Thunborg said in an interview on Sunday.

On Sunday, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission said it expected no "harmful levels of radioactivity" to move on the winds to Hawaii, Alaska or the West Coast from the reactors in Japan.

But some private nuclear experts urged caution.

"We're all worrying about it," said Robert Alvarez, a nuclear expert who, from 1993 to 1999, was a policy adviser to the secretary of energy.

"It's going to be important," he added, "for the Japanese and U.S. authorities to inform the public about the nature of the plumes and any need for precautionary measures."

The plume issue has arisen before. In 1986, radiation spewing from the Chernobyl disaster in Ukraine reached the West Coast in 10 days.

Since then, scientists have refined their abilities to monitor such atmospheric releases.

With the Japanese crisis, apprehension has also soared.

"Concern has been raised about a massive radioactive cloud escaping and sweeping over the West Coast," said a blog, recommending whole grains and health foods for fighting radiation poisoning.

On another blog, someone asked, "Should I take iodine now?" That referred to pills that can prevent poisoning from the atmospheric release of iodine-131, a radioactive byproduct of nuclear plants that the Japanese authorities have identified as escaping into the atmosphere.


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