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Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: ThunderMuffin] #230258
03/25/11 07:26 AM
03/25/11 07:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Undecided
Hey Pete,

its not multi-day, but theres the Mug race in early May that will give you a taste of distance racing. Its a pretty awesome race from what I'm told.


And the Reef Run (single or multi day, I think), Miami to Key largo (single day) and if you wnat to come to the Outer Banks of NC ,The Duck Cup(2 day) .
Here's a few more, scroll down to distance races.
http://www.catsailor.com/cs_schedules.html


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: ThunderMuffin] #230262
03/25/11 10:28 AM
03/25/11 10:28 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Todd_Sails  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
And, there is the GT 300, 4 days of sailing up the TX coast.

Awesome time.

www.gt300.com


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: Todd_Sails] #230266
03/25/11 10:59 AM
03/25/11 10:59 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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brucat  Offline
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Posts: 3,969
Here's an outside-the-box idea (which I am sure has been considered at some level):

Maybe this race needs to be held bi-annually? Other major events (Volvo, AC, Olympics) with high logistical and financial costs are not held annually, and have no problem remaining as the pinnacle events of the sport.

Just an idea...

Mike

Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: brucat] #230270
03/25/11 01:06 PM
03/25/11 01:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mike

I have thought much the same... BUT
I have been looking for any kind of event that draws on substantial volunteer effort that run every other year or even every three years... I can't find any!.... It seems that the volunteer crew can not hold together with the layoff or recruit enough experienced people to rebuild the team that puts the event on.

The events that you describe are commercial with lots of paid staff to solve this problem.

I am looking for a good role model here ... because I agree with Mike that a race like the Tybee or the Worrel or even something bigger makes sense in the US every other year etc.

Now there IS another view (Clean) that huge promotion will draw competitors and sponsors.... I don't see the world working that way but... I would love to be wrong.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: Mark Schneider] #230271
03/25/11 01:10 PM
03/25/11 01:10 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
BLR_0719 Offline
enthusiast
BLR_0719  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
Somebody needs to get Colbert on a catamaran to do the Tybee.



Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: BLR_0719] #230272
03/25/11 01:11 PM
03/25/11 01:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
BLR_0719 Offline
enthusiast
BLR_0719  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
The biggest issue this year seemed to be available boats. There were teams both local and international--two from St Thomas alone--that were interested in coming but there just weren't enough boats to be sailed.



Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: BLR_0719] #230274
03/25/11 01:38 PM
03/25/11 01:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Well all boats are for sale at some price...

It sounds like there were no cheap boat solution from the point of view of people who want a charter... or worth while charters from the point of view of people with boats who could charter.

What do you think will change by 2012?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: Mark Schneider] #230287
03/25/11 10:05 PM
03/25/11 10:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
BLR_0719 Offline
enthusiast
BLR_0719  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Well all boats are for sale at some price...

It sounds like there were no cheap boat solution from the point of view of people who want a charter... or worth while charters from the point of view of people with boats who could charter.

What do you think will change by 2012?


The world will be ending so people won't care as much about their boats. Duh. Keep up.



Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: BLR_0719] #230288
03/26/11 12:31 AM
03/26/11 12:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
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Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
That not until December.


I'm boatless.
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: Karl_Brogger] #230293
03/26/11 05:55 PM
03/26/11 05:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
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S

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
1) I think Tybee can be sustained on a year-year basis IF properly advertised. IMO this is the weakest link on the race organizers part, publicity seemed pretty much non-existent last year. Without publicity, people don't know about the race, the sponsors have no reason to advertise and it becomes a non-event.

2) A race like the Worrell cannot be maintained on a year to year basis and frankly becomes difficult to sustain financially without a major title sponsor (say Puma, Volvo, BMW etc). Its simply too draining financially on the teams and too big of a time commitment to happen every year. I could see every other year, maybe alternating with Tybee if that race is deemed unsuitable for year-year racing.

3) The volunteer issue is a major one, which is one of the reasons a big name sponsor is needed for a Worrell type event. If Chuck can bring his crew back next year, which I suspect he will, there will be proof that a bi-annual volunteer run event can happen.

4) Boats for charter seem non-existent, or nearly so. I think the best bet is to bring a manufacturer on board, they can charter the boats for the week and sell afterwards (similar to Alter Cup). I'm not sure if this is financially viable or not, but it is a proving grounds for the robustness of the platform so there is some benefit from an R&D standpoint.

One of the other issues is the N20 class is dieing, and many have jumped to the F18 fleet which is growing yet there is a lack of interest in distance racing the 18's vs. the 20 footers. The next boat I see myself buying is likely an F16 as I am moving to an area with a large fleet (14). In order to do Tybee/Worrell type events, I would either hit the lottery so I can buy 2 boats, do a boat swap before the event, and/or simply buy a 20 footer and crew on the smaller boats.

Last edited by samc99us; 03/26/11 05:59 PM.

Scorpion F18
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: samc99us] #230299
03/26/11 08:19 PM
03/26/11 08:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Mike Worrell did nothing but extensive and exhaustive advertising and while participation wasn't the ultimate downfall of the event, it was always a struggle. While I agree that the Tybee 500 organizers haven't found a way to put a significant effort into the advertising of the event, Sailing Anarchy did cover it one year hitting what should have been a premier audience for the race (though, I wasn't a fan of the coverage provided, personally). I don't believe the next year netted any increase in participation as a result.

Charter boats would be important for a few US sailors and several international teams and would probably bring at least 5 more teams into the event.

TeamSeacats, regretfully, were planning to sit this year out anyway. Our time on the water is limited together with tons of job-work and little vacation...and we wanted to spend some effort this year getting into a new class (F18), some training, and working on our performance a little. Besides, I've always had a gut feeling that the Tybee would have better attendance in a bi-annual presentation - I hope I'm right! It's a great race and, in the famous action star catch phrase of the Schwartz, "we'll be back".

If we take an objective look back at the history of the event, we see a couple of things that might enhance it's future:

A) RV's used to be the rage to do the race and save money. Now, they are a pain in the butt because there's no provisions made for them and you end up a mile or better away from the checkpoint. I don't know how, but it would be great if there was a way to support RV's for the race.

B) Velocity Sailing effectively made themselves a sub-contractor of the Tybee 500 by providing economical savings for the large number of teams they signed up under their umbrella - and they signed up a bunch! They leveraged their size to save people cash. IMHO, the race could take away a lesson from this example by providing some cost saving measures; a small extra fee entitles your team to nightly tin-pan catered dinners from local restaurants...maybe a big race trailer that teams can stow luggage and gear...perhaps some additional team building help on their website (ground crew, sharing rooms, etc.).

These are thoughts....not criticisms.


Jake Kohl
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: Jake] #230302
03/26/11 09:04 PM
03/26/11 09:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Hey Jake,
Time to change your sig line.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #230313
03/27/11 10:41 AM
03/27/11 10:41 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes
Sloansailing Offline
member
Sloansailing  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes
Many races run bi-annually and I don't think it is any detriment to the organization or momentum of the event. Pac Cup and Trans Pac run alternating years. The Van Isle 360 runs every other year, and is hugely popular and has sold out almost every year. And the Newport Bermuda race and Annapolis Bermuda race run alternating years (maybe different now than when I raced it) but there is also the Bermuda 1-2 which I believe runs Bi-annually.

The Tybee seems like a really cool event that could gather a lot of exposure. A year off is no big deal, with the right promotion during the year off if could come back bigger than ever. Definitely need a supportive title sponsor, which is probably the hardest thing to find (it was for the Van Isle).

Anyway, just my take on it from the other side of the country.


Anacortes Rigging.com
Rigging and Yacht Services
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: Sloansailing] #230321
03/27/11 02:37 PM
03/27/11 02:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
You raised some good examples...Note the differences though..
the Bermuda races are run by two of the biggest Yacht Clubs in the country. They have several paid staff and infrastructure to make these events happen. So, while these might not be commercial events... I would say their race management and conduct is professional. These are not examples of dedicated volunteers running an event on a two year cycle... year after year.

I believe the major cat distance races (Tybee, Worrel, Hogsbreath/Reefrunner? and the Great Texas race are labors of love by no more then a handful of volunteers.

I think your point about the Van Isle
Quote
Definitely need a supportive title sponsor, which is probably the hardest thing to find (it was for the Van Isle).

The sponsorship pays for the people who make the event happen and these people can sustain the drive over a two year cycle.

Its a tough road... even if the AC activity stirs up a buzz... You still need a plan for the sponsor. I wonder if the AC cup organization could get talked into supporting distance cat racing.... hmmm



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: Jake] #230361
03/28/11 01:16 PM
03/28/11 01:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Jake,

You've got very good points, as well as hard-won experience in this event, but isn't the purpose of selling a 'host hotel/checkpoint' to get room-nights for the hotel? Having a slew of RVs in their parking lot probably doesn't improve their gross margin.

I agree with your suggestions about a logistics package.. Such a great race, even to watch...


Jay

Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #230389
03/29/11 07:35 AM
03/29/11 07:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 139
Hernando, Florida
M
Mlcreek Offline
member
Mlcreek  Offline
member
M

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 139
Hernando, Florida
" Definitely need a supportive title sponsor, which is probably the hardest thing to find (it was for the Van Isle)."

Group,

Being new, I may be off base, but why would we want to attempt a sponsor for the whole race as opposed to legs. In golf tournaments, businesses sponsor a hole. So if a national and or local company were to sponsor a leg, would this not be more palatable? Of course as previously stated, a large corporation wanted to step up, you wouldn't turn it down. I wonder why a major boat manufacturer wouldn't jump at the chance to line their new boats up on the beach for rides and instruction. From what I understand, when you go to bike week, the bike manufacturers have lines of bikes for you to take for test rides. How can we build interest if all the novice sees are 10-20 thousand dollar boats coming ashore and leaving again. Shouldn't there be a product in a smaller cheaper size for the public to purchase to create interest. I mean truthfully, of all the cat sailors out there, how many are day/weekend sailors and how many are racers?
Thanks for your time, just my 2 cents.

Forrest I-20



Forrest
I-20
USA 645

" There ain't enough rum in the drum!"
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: Mlcreek] #230391
03/29/11 07:59 AM
03/29/11 07:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
T

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
Hey Forrest,

I love your idea. We had a similar idea back in 2009. We approached a manufacturer and asked them if they wanted our huge ground crew to demo their boats at the checkpoints during the legs. Unfortunately, things like insurance and such things got in the way of that. With the interest that the race gathers on the beach - it presents a great opportunity for a recreational boat to be showcased. Local businesses at the checkpoint are great opportunities to approach for leg sponsorships.

Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: ThunderMuffin] #230395
03/29/11 08:44 AM
03/29/11 08:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 139
Hernando, Florida
M
Mlcreek Offline
member
Mlcreek  Offline
member
M

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 139
Hernando, Florida
Even if the manufacturer doesn't want to bring boats, I wonder if a dealer would be willing to bring some of the smaller ones for demo and sale. Give a nice discount at the finish line if not sold by then. I would think that if he could sell 2-3 boats in the hand full of stops, it might be worth his time. As to insurance, I would think that his policy would cover the exposure of the demos and if not, one of the members here dealing in insurance,(Jay) might be able to sell a policy to cover the limited event. Going back to the local sponsorers, if their names were on banners at the race site, and crews and ground people were steered to them for business, this would create good will for the local folks.

Forrest I-20


Forrest
I-20
USA 645

" There ain't enough rum in the drum!"
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: Mlcreek] #230396
03/29/11 10:01 AM
03/29/11 10:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
Pooh-Bah
catman  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
The problem with demoing boats is the surf. Your not going to sell rec boats when your dealing with X games water.


Have Fun
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 [Re: Mark Schneider] #230434
03/29/11 09:36 PM
03/29/11 09:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Title sponsors are good and all, but there's one big question still - where are the racers? This year's race was organized and ready to go as far as I can tell, but there weren't the folks signed up. Were they not signed up due to not having a title sponsor? I don't think so.

As strong as this race has been, I think if you look at the past couple of years of entrants, you'll find a core of mostly the same people. Velocity has done the most to bring in some new blood (if not for their efforts, things would be worse IMO). But where is the rest of the new crop of distance racing junkies coming from?

If an event or club relies on the same core year after year, eventually it will fall apart because some or most of those people eventually drift away for whatever reason. If there isn't an influx of new blood then you're left short-handed when the tried and true move their efforts around.

Most sailors I know have enough respect for the Tybee type races to not think they can just jump in and do it. They know they need to have the chops and their boat will need work. I look at our situation here on the Chesapeake - once Doug and Andy (and others) moved on, there are few if any that are looking to go that route. You can't badger those folks to come back, they will if they want to, but you can't bank on it. Alec and I cut our teeth and got our confidence doing the distance races on the Bay, races that have gone away themselves, leaving a reduced chance of getting people involved in this kind of racing. As people gravitate to A-Cats, F-16s, and F-18s more emphasis is on buoy racing. So how do we convince folks they can step up?

There are pros that obviously populate races like the Tybee, but then again, depending on what they have going their commitments and programs may take them away from it on any given year.

And there lies another question - does the soul of the future of the race look more like a professional sailor's venue, or one that is still open to the crazies who have enough vacation time? Can you successfully cater to both? Should you?

There was mention that there were foreign teams looking to charter boats. I only heard about this after it was too late. Not sure if I would have chartered my boat (hey, you never know), but it makes me think there isn't a good network to match up boats and sailors. There's one suggestion for the T500 organizers - a crew/team/charter board on the T500 site itself to help facilitate match making. This and other sites are helpful, but again the feature needs to be part of the T500 site, front and center.

Anyway, maybe more questions than answers, but I've always been a believer in achieving critical mass - that way when people go off to other endeavors there are new ones coming in. Recruit, recruit, recruit. It's not always easy, but if you have enough people that want to play plus some, you can play even if some are away.



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