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Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - West River Fleet [Re: Mark Schneider] #230557
03/31/11 01:14 PM
03/31/11 01:14 PM
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Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Keith..

They F18 sailors will turn to distance racing when they get bored with turning left all the time.

However...It might be a small number of sailors who want to break the pattern and race from A to B.

Back in the day... the Hobie 16 and 18 sailors were the core group for all of the distance races.... They did both. Now a days... they have a very strong fleet and no ... zero interest in distance races. (understandably, they don't want to finish 2 to 3 hours behind the spin 20's and that is probably a strong negative unless they could get a fleet of like minded H16 sailors together.)

Perhaps, the strong one design buoy racing scene keeps them interested in buoys sailing and they don't have the itch to go some place on their boat. Those Hobie sailors with the itch to sail from A to B have moved on.

Another possibility ... when CRAC was successfully running distance races... our buoy races were all on portsmouth and we had a real range of boats.... We had 20 years of no strong one design racing to speak of... Distance racing on portsmouth was much more fun then portsmouth buoy racing.

Since the beach cat world has consolidated into a handful of fleets you have to look for distance racers in those ranks.
Bottom line, the group of sailors with the itch to go from A to B is small in any of our current OD fleets.

Your point that we don't have many opportunities to get experience in distance races may be true but not that important.. We still don't have new sailors taking on a 40 mile race with 200 other boats... We just get our 5 to 10 boats... same guys... no new faces.

So, I think that until the F18 and F16 sailors get bored with turning left week in and week out the numbers will be small. Putting a 1000 mile race on the schedule might get the old guard back out for their last extreme race... but probably not the average weekend warrior.

Finally, the more single handed the fleet becomes... the less likely that a distance race will be popular. I am not likely to run a 40 mile race on my A cat.... turns out the big boats need lots of crew and I want to do Annapolis to Bermuda one day!

My suggestion then.... Just keep asking the F18 and F16 sailors... are you bored with turning left yet?

Good points.

Well, following my critical mass line, you don't need all buoy racers to turn distance racers, you just need enough. So the small number (from a variety of locations) may be all that is needed.

Times have changed I guess - we used to relish hunting down the spin boats on our H-20s and N-6.0s when the conditions changed. But it was always two classes, spin and non, and I don't think it bothered us if the spin boats went out on the horizon - they should have!

I know it took awhile for me to gear up to be able to do just the local distance racing. It may take a bit to get somebody over the hump and into their first taste of it. This may be part of why Oxford doesn't get the turn out you'd like. But it's pretty much the only race on the Bay now, so if you have a sched conflict or something, that's it for around here. But I'll go on the record and I say I enjoy that race. And the glances you get are not always friendly...

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - West River Fleet [Re: BoK] #230558
03/31/11 01:16 PM
03/31/11 01:16 PM

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DUH
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Amazing how much action there is on this forum after the race is canceled tired Everyone loves a train wreck.

We should take another page from the Euros: Mix the two together. The Eurocat has a distance race that all the bouy guys participate in.
Texel has the Dutch Open during the week before the Ronde Texel.
The CataCup is all distance races of different types with an upwind turning mark and is wildly successful.
There are plenty of distance races in the EU that are one day events that are very popular. The Raid was canceled too.

I think it would be nice to see a day of distance racing during the middle day of F18 nationals. One race to count twice or two races with a lunch between.

I'm not exactly sure why more cats don't distance race. We cover such an unbelievable amount of miles a day! When I first started racing I did the 45x45 in Cocoa. We flipped and I was tired as hell. I said to Noodle, "I think I'll just stick to buoy racing." That worked out real well.

But for me sailing is sailing, and distance racing helps with raw speed, navigation, the larger weather picture, strategy, preparation and logistics. It is a whole different skillset than buoys. When I was on the Tybee Isl. Sail Team I offered my assistance to the organization to travel and do a presentation on the race, logistics, costs, how to get through the surf...everything. They didn't go for it. I thought a grassroots effort would help, but who knows.

Overall, I think that races are popular because of prestige, marketing and organization. You all know that includes an investment of a lot of time and money. You get what you pay for I guess.

Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - West River Fleet [Re: ] #230559
03/31/11 01:24 PM
03/31/11 01:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Perhaps this was mentioned before ... and it's just a thought. What if the Tybee had two or three legs that were open to people that just wanted to compete in one or two legs...might help them get their feet wet about the event and build interest.

Would there be any interest from the sailing community?

I think you have to have the same type of safety requirements and maybe even a boat inspection (with some legalese that a boat inspection does not mean the Race Committee has assumed responsibility for the seaworthiness of the craft) but my inclination would be to relax the boat requirements for the leg somewhat (i.e., entertain the idea of non-spin boats).


Jake Kohl
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - West River Fleet [Re: ] #230561
03/31/11 01:27 PM
03/31/11 01:27 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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For me, I was buoy racing and not having much success. After some success at distance racing (my off the wind speed was much better than my knowledge of weather or the finer heading points of sailing). I started distance racing and wow, what a thrill!

Right now, I'm starting to have more success around the cans and with my life becoming every-the-more-busy, I'm enjoying the slightly reduced amount of preparation required for can racing. I do have a desire to distance race and will certainly continue to do so, however.


Jake Kohl
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - West River Fleet [Re: Jake] #230566
03/31/11 02:26 PM
03/31/11 02:26 PM
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Naples, FL
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Don't the euro "chaps" have a different work/sail schedule? We 'mericans are too greedy (or in debt) to stop working to enjoy the thrill of sailing, much less racing.

I'm personally split almost equally between the two disciplines. I enjoy bouys for the close boat-boat interaction, short range strategy, and if I screw up somewhere, I get a fresh start in about an hour. If things went sideways, it was easier to pull the boat out.

Distance racing, as you so eloquently put FoN, is an entirely different animal. The boats (and sometimes crew) are the only common denominator. Navigation, logistics, gear, training, and mental fortitude are skill sets that need a lot of development to go distance well. I don't think you'd ever face 5+ hours trapped out holding a spin sheet on one tack in huge seas in any weekend regatta..

I used to think I got beat up more in distance stuff, but today that's not always the case because teams go around the cans much more aggressively.

As far as costs go, would attending a 5 day regatta cost less than a 5 day distance race? Maybe a little cheaper since you wouldn't need as much ground crew or fuel at a buoy regatta...?

Those that do extensive campaigns in either (or both) disciplines could provide more on that note...

Nobody said racing was cheap...or easy.

While I drivel on about my personal opinions, I prefer three FL distance races (Hirams, MKL, Mug) more than the rest, primarily for these reasons (in order):
- there was a huge diversity of boats (multi and mono) which gave you lots to look at (and sail around)
- races could be completed in a day, usually with some free time afterwards to catch up with the other teams
- the navigation was relatively straightforward, but the strategy can be as complicated as you want

RTI pensacola, Everglades Challenge, and others like them have very similar appeal, with the exception that they demand more endurance because the distances are significantly greater.


Jay

Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - West River Fleet [Re: maritimesailor] #230585
03/31/11 05:02 PM
03/31/11 05:02 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
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Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
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For a starter race, you can't beat the Steeplechase.., it has it all execpt the surf starting. And normally, you can almost walk to shore.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
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Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - West River Fleet [Re: RickWhite] #230654
04/01/11 02:39 PM
04/01/11 02:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
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Originally Posted by RickWhite
you can almost walk to shore.
Rick


LMAO! yes, you really CAN walk to shore...dragging your boat with you! Thanks for changing the finish line by the way.

And yes, Steeple is probably my favorite multi-day distance race...


Jay

Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - West River Fleet [Re: waterbug_wpb] #230676
04/02/11 12:04 AM
04/02/11 12:04 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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I think there are a lot of good suggestions in here. Opening up some of the shorter/more convenient Tybee legs to outside boats sounds very doable and can hopefully show more people the distance racing scene without them committing to the full 500 miles. Of course, there still need to be enough boats entered to make it financially viable to hold the race in the first place!

Logistics packages like those offered by Velocity are great and what enabled me to do the race last year. Without the teams support, we would not have been able to finish the race, since we blew up several major bits (boom, rudder blade, pintails) over the course of the week. I think this is where manufacturers need to jump in-for example, I don't see an F16 making it through the race without 2 or 3 other same make F16's with lots of spares also doing the race or say Falcon Marine running up the beach selling parts along the way.

Finally, I would be interested to know what the cost of doing a Worrell "new style" (stopping at hotels everyday) versus a more "original" three man team non-stop sailing. I see the non-stop as being slightly cheaper as you cut the hotel costs in half but I'm sure more boat damage occurs and it is certainly riskier-but more fun.

Of the F18 owners that have considered the race, is safety a primary reason for not doing the race? I haven't seen this issue brought up, as IMO the race is as safe as ocean racing can be.


Scorpion F18
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - West River Fleet [Re: samc99us] #230677
04/02/11 12:42 AM
04/02/11 12:42 AM
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Posts: 1,430
california
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Don't forget the Delta Ditch Run if your on the West Coast. Fun 67 miles down the delta.


Richard Vilvens
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Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - AIGP format [Re: F-18 5150] #230683
04/02/11 10:06 AM
04/02/11 10:06 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
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>A1 Grand Prix (A1GP) was a 'single make' open-wheel auto racing series.
It was unique in its field in that competitors solely represented their nation
as opposed to themselves or a team, the usual format in most formula racing series. <

How about an sailing A1GP format?
A thousand mile race with a minimum of ten sailors per team/city or state,
where each team member sails a maximum of two days or each pair sails approximately 200 miles.
Ft. Walton vs Daytona vs Cocoa Beach vs Miami vs New Jersey vs Long Beach vs Pensacola vs Tampa vs Sidney

Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - AIGP format [Re: sail7seas] #230690
04/02/11 03:57 PM
04/02/11 03:57 PM
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If we could find 10 sailors from each of enough countries to make this work, that would be a pretty cool concept. Of course, you'd be turning away sailors from the host country (presumably, more than 10 people would be interested in this).

Mike

Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - West River Fleet [Re: samc99us] #230694
04/02/11 08:16 PM
04/02/11 08:16 PM
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NC
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Originally Posted by samc99us
Of the F18 owners that have considered the race, is safety a primary reason for not doing the race? I haven't seen this issue brought up, as IMO the race is as safe as ocean racing can be.


Sam, if you're looking for F18 POV on the race, see Todd R.'s (wildtsail) post here: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=120034&st=0

Your question on safety seems kinda out of the blue, considering F18s have been participating for a couple of years now.

Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - West River Fleet [Re: drbinkle] #230698
04/02/11 11:52 PM
04/02/11 11:52 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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I've read the SA thread as well. His point is valid but I think the full 1000 mile race will only garner a lot of interest for 1 year and only if Tybee isn't run. It too expensive and time consuming to run year in and year out as proven by history. My opinion is it should be done non stop with a 3 man team, go big or go home.

My question on safety was directed at those F18 and other class sailors on the fence. I get the feeling that people are afraid to do this race from a safety of life standpoint, and a healthy respect of mother nature is warranted, but with modern technology (EPIRB's) my opinion is it is plenty safe. I also think people feel it is a monumental challenge-in many ways it is but with good logistical support and properly prepared boat, the Tybee 500 is really 6 days of buoy racing with the added risk of getting stranded due to breakage or stuck in a squall etc. Oh, and you might not make it to the bar by 5pm everyday, but you do get the chance to sail against some of the best sailors in the world...tradeoffs

Last edited by samc99us; 04/02/11 11:54 PM.

Scorpion F18
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - West River Fleet [Re: samc99us] #230850
04/06/11 02:38 PM
04/06/11 02:38 PM
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Naples, FL
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I think that part of what you said intimidates would be T-500ers. That they'll be up against some of the best sailors around.

Some people get very discouraged bringing up the tail end of the fleet five or more days in a row. This reality has to be balanced with the excitement of completing a marquee adventure race.


Jay

Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - West River Fleet [Re: waterbug_wpb] #230853
04/06/11 04:00 PM
04/06/11 04:00 PM
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Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I think that part of what you said intimidates would be T-500ers. That they'll be up against some of the best sailors around.

Some people get very discouraged bringing up the tail end of the fleet five or more days in a row. This reality has to be balanced with the excitement of completing a marquee adventure race.


I can honestly say that the thing that intimidated us about the race was not going up against some of the best sailors. Getting to sail side by side with Mischa and JC and the rest of the folks that ultimately horizoned us was part of the attraction.

The intimidation factor for us was the possibility of getting in over our heads in situations far from shore. Of keeping things together for long legs if things weren't going right. Of wondering if the boat was prepped right for those things. I'm not sure I'd characterize the race as 6 days of buoy racing. What comes to mind there is the saying about whether the race was or was not "just like the postcard". These are some of the things I sense when talking to newbie distance sailors.

When we started the idea of doing this race we set our goals thusly - First, finish the race. Second, don't be last. Third, learn whatever can be learned. Try and work for more, but better returns would be gravy. Our first try we didn't make the first goal, but oddly enough did manage the second.

Our second try we did all three, but, to be honest, that year was "like the postcard". We didn't have to do any 100 mile legs upwind in 20+ and big swells. Also, if that race had been held one week later that year the results would have been far different IMO. So that's my vote for what I think (or what should) intimidates folks. But it's also what makes you prep for safety and robustness while trying to figure out how to pace with (and become) the best.


Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - West River Fleet [Re: Keith] #230855
04/06/11 04:23 PM
04/06/11 04:23 PM
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Atlanta, Ga
BLR_0719 Offline
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I sincerely hope no one sits out for fear of losing. If that's the case then you should take up knitting and stay away from competitive racing of any sort.



Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - West River Fleet [Re: BLR_0719] #230859
04/06/11 05:22 PM
04/06/11 05:22 PM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by BLR_0719
I sincerely hope no one sits out for fear of losing. If that's the case then you should take up knitting and stay away from competitive racing of any sort.


+1000


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - West River Fleet [Re: BLR_0719] #230862
04/06/11 07:23 PM
04/06/11 07:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Originally Posted by BLR_0719
I sincerely hope no one sits out for fear of losing. If that's the case then you should take up knitting and stay away from competitive racing of any sort.


+ a bunch

Pretty much my point, more concisely said!

Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - West River Fleet [Re: Keith] #230876
04/07/11 07:27 AM
04/07/11 07:27 AM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Talk to Trey about bringing up the rear. 2005 and 2006 we were DFL.

Now, while I do my fair share of anchoring the fleet, Trey does a good job at beating it.

Point is, there's always room for improvement.

Last edited by Undecided; 04/07/11 07:28 AM.
Re: 2011 Tybee 500 - West River Fleet [Re: ThunderMuffin] #230877
04/07/11 08:06 AM
04/07/11 08:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
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Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Originally Posted by Undecided
Talk to Trey about bringing up the rear. 2005 and 2006 we were DFL.

Now, while I do my fair share of anchoring the fleet, Trey does a good job at beating it.

Point is, there's always room for improvement.


For sure! And that's my point, laid out in our goals. First is to finish. Can't win if you don't do that. If we don't meet the second goal (don't be last), that's OK, cause if you raced/finished and learned something, you're in a better spot for next time!

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