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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Paul Pascoe] #232048
05/07/11 02:37 AM
05/07/11 02:37 AM
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Paul Pascoe Offline
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Paul Pascoe  Offline
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All finished. Proposal from Events Committee is it for 2016. Votes on submissions were:

M05-11 GER 1
M10-11 JAP 19
M12-11 Chmn EC 0
M16-11 BRA 2
M23-11 IRL 1
M29-11 PUR 9
M39-11 NED 5

So 2 boards/kites, 2 x 470s, 2 x Skiffs, 2 x Lasers, Finn, Multihull

That's all from St Petersburg. Gotta dash ... hope I make my plane.

Paul Pascoe

Last edited by Paul Pascoe; 05/07/11 04:25 AM.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Paul Pascoe] #232050
05/07/11 05:14 AM
05/07/11 05:14 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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TEAMVMG  Offline
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uk
MIXED multihull for certain?


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: TEAMVMG] #232051
05/07/11 06:13 AM
05/07/11 06:13 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 74
Australia
Helen (AHPC) Offline
journeyman
Helen (AHPC)  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 74
Australia
The official ISAF website states:

"The ten events selected by the ISAF Council for the 2016 Olympic Sailing Competition are:

Men's Board or Kiteboard - evaluation
Women's Board or Kiteboard - evaluation
Men's One Person Dinghy - Laser
Women's One Person Dinghy - Laser Radial
Men's 2nd One Person Dinghy - Finn
Men's Skiff - 49er
Women's Skiff - Evaluation
Men's Two Person Dinghy - 470
Women's Two Person Dinghy - 470
Mixed Two Person Multihull - Evaluation"

Check out the full report ISAF NEWS

Guess that makes it pretty official!

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Paul Pascoe] #232052
05/07/11 06:14 AM
05/07/11 06:14 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Timbo  Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
Originally Posted by Paul Pascoe
All finished. Proposal from Events Committee is it for 2016. Votes on submissions were:

M05-11 GER 1
M10-11 JAP 19
M12-11 Chmn EC 0
M16-11 BRA 2
M23-11 IRL 1
M29-11 PUR 9
M39-11 NED 5

So 2 boards/kites, 2 x 470s, 2 x Skiffs, 2 x Lasers, Finn, Multihull

That's all from St Petersburg. Gotta dash ... hope I make my plane.

Paul Pascoe



Thanks for the updates Paul, I hope you made your flight! BTW, when you get home and have time, what do those numbers represent? Are those the numbers of votes in favor of the Multihull?


Blade F16
#777
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232053
05/07/11 06:21 AM
05/07/11 06:21 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 74
Australia
Helen (AHPC) Offline
journeyman
Helen (AHPC)  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 74
Australia
The code (egs MO5-11) is the submission number. A full description of each submission can be found on the ISAF website. This link should work ISAF submissions for 2011 mid year meeting

But each of the 7 submissions listed by Paul had the Catamaran listed in at least one event. Submission M39-11 had it listed as 2 events - Women & Men.

Cheers
Helen

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Helen (AHPC)] #232054
05/07/11 06:23 AM
05/07/11 06:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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pgp  Offline
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laugh So, which cat is going to the Olympics?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: pgp] #232057
05/07/11 07:25 AM
05/07/11 07:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
Thanks Helen. And Pete, I think they have yet to decide exactly which cat it will be. I'm just glad there is one included.


Blade F16
#777
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232060
05/07/11 08:01 AM
05/07/11 08:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Annapolis, MD
Now this is a challenge for the USA.

Of the 10 Olympic events Our US clubs prepare young sailors for 5 of them. ... Lasers, 470s, and Finns.

The remaining 5... Boards/Kites, Skiffs and Multihulls..... not so much.

The medal prospects just took a hit...without Keel boats in the mix. Dean Brenner or his successor will really need to pull a miracle out of the bag now. This will really test Brenner's model that he can get a medal contender by converting a sailor... into a skiff or multi sailor.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232061
05/07/11 09:42 AM
05/07/11 09:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Timbo  Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
OR..he could just pick up the phone, call Pete Melvin and ask him if he'd like to "Represent" and go get a medal on a cat.

Oh, and Pete, BTW, first you have to design it...

;^)


Blade F16
#777
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232064
05/07/11 10:33 AM
05/07/11 10:33 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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brucat  Offline
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NOW I am surprised, in shock, actually... I can't believe there will be no keelboat. Wow, this is the first thing ISAF has done that has actually surprised me.

Let's see how long it takes for this to be changed...

Mike

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: brucat] #232066
05/07/11 12:22 PM
05/07/11 12:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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Jalani  Offline
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Essex, UK
Originally Posted by brucat
NOW I am surprised, in shock, actually... I can't believe there will be no keelboat. Wow, this is the first thing ISAF has done that has actually surprised me.

Let's see how long it takes for this to be changed...

Mike


ISAF didn't really have much option but to drop the keelboat - they've been warned on several occasions by the IOC that the infrastructure requirements for the keelboat versus the public appeal can't be justified. On at least one paper they were warned that if they persisted with a lead slug they risked the future of sailing being in the olympics. They really pushed it as far as they dared though.....


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: pgp] #232067
05/07/11 12:46 PM
05/07/11 12:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 490
catandahalf Offline
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catandahalf  Offline
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I understand Performance is developing a NACRA Formula 16. Maybe that's a positive omen:-) US3 is racing to Pensacola Sea Buoy against NACRA 20s and the new NACRA Formula 20 C as I type (26 miler in open water and swells).

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: brucat] #232068
05/07/11 02:45 PM
05/07/11 02:45 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Luiz  Offline
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Originally Posted by brucat

I can't believe there will be no keelboat. Wow, this is the first thing ISAF has done that has actually surprised me. Let's see how long it takes for this to be changed...


Other important changes are necessary. If the new AC race courses and rules succeed, fast boats will remain and slow boats will have to go. It won't be finished until we have the windsurfer, kite, moth, 49er and multihull (or a variation of this) for both genders.


Luiz
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Luiz] #232075
05/07/11 11:39 PM
05/07/11 11:39 PM
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Paul Pascoe Offline
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Paul Pascoe  Offline
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All,

Made my plane OK thanks, but still on the way home. In Hong Kong but have posted a full report on the meeting from a multihull perspective if you want something to put you to sleep.

http://tinyurl.com/2016multihull

Even if take my multihull hat off, I don't think that it is a bad slate of events. There is obviously some duplication of double handers and the Laser/Finn but I think most people see this as a transation until more countries build up their skiff fleets. Event at my little patch at home, the kids coming out of Optimists and Sabots prefer to sail a 29er to a 420. It will happen, but at the moment, there are too many countries that own boats, have hired coaches, setup junior programs etc, based on the 420/470 and people voted to retain this investment.

Generally ISAF only changes one or two classes per year, so you can never expect wholesale changes - it is just too expensive and disruptive.

And while it is unfortunate when any class is removed, the keelboats in the Olympics are not the sort of keelboat that most people sail on a Saturday afternoon. So when someone says "most people sail keelboats and therefore should be represented at the Olympics", the keelboats in the Olympics are not your normal Saturday afternoon keelboats - with respect they are more like dinghies with a piece of lead attached to the bottom (that comment should get the comments flowing ...).

Off to check-in.

Paul

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Luiz] #232076
05/07/11 11:39 PM
05/07/11 11:39 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
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Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
The Tornado and F18 is far from too big, heavy, loads too high for Olympic mixed or all female crew (We are talking about athletic women / men). Both classes both have mixed and all women crews currently racing at both club and International level. There are a lot of female sailors out there who would handle the boats comfortably, not only currently sailing multies but from other classes such as 470s, Lasers, RSX etc. Could see a few cross into Multi sailing.

I would like to see a OD boat such as a Viper as the next Olympic boat but would be just as happy with the Tornado.
Personally I would not like to see an F18 or F16 class chosen. I believe the Viper is far enough outside the F16 rules though and can stand alone as an OD class enough to warrant it for Olympic selection. Boat has similar performance to an F18 however the loads are a little lighter, boat is lighter, 125kg for sloop, several thousand $$$ cheaper. Its ideal crew weight is a little lighter also, somewhere between 120kg to 140kg combined. More suited to mix or all female crew than the F18 is. The Tornado also suited to lower crew weights than the F18. About 140kg being ideal.

I believe the Viper would be an ideal choice for mixed crew for 2016. As more females become involved at an Olympic level, then this could warrant male and female classes for 2020 with the Viper for women and the Tornado (M20 or Narca's new F20) for male.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #232078
05/08/11 07:19 AM
05/08/11 07:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 105
Bloomington, IN
jbecker Offline
member
jbecker  Offline
member

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 105
Bloomington, IN
Has anybody been paying attention to how many F-18 races Mischa Heemskerk and Carrie Howe have won together? They've sailed and won other events beside the North American F18s, including some distance events.

[Linked Image]

Winners North Americans Formula 18

"Winners North Americans Formula 18!
Saturday, 14 August 2010 16:07
Carrie Howe & I won the event for the 3rd time now as a team."


Jeff
Tiger 849
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #232080
05/08/11 08:19 AM
05/08/11 08:19 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Luiz  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
The closing words of this article in Sail World are a good summary:

Quote
The Star class has twice before been dropped from the Olympics. On the first occasion, its replacement, the Tempest lasted just two Olympics before the class, which dates back 1911, made it back into the Olympic regatta.

On the second occasion, its demise was only temporary as the class old boy network was able to obtain an 11th medal for itself, as a temporary measure, and then survived the cut to 10 Olympic events.

Few would discount this happening again with Brazil hosting the 2016 Olympics and also being the most successful nation in Star class competition in recent years.

In the end, this vote also determined a major change in the Olympic regatta, and sport. The day will be remembered as the moment when the self-interest and old-boy politics took a body blow in the ISAF, and the Council revolt will extend beyond the 7th day of May 2011.



He is right. The Brazilian Olympic Commitee will probably ask the IOC an extra medal for the Star, they may be in position to negotiate it for anything the IOC needs for the 2016 games.

Their motivation is obvious: if the competition is eliminated that gives the country its best shot at a gold medal and where three of its most famous athletes compete, public opinion and mood about the Olympics will turn negative, which could harm the entire event. Rio's population is known for expressing their opinions openly, mostly through jokes, but also more agressively. A paralel can be made with the last Pan Am games, when trash was thrown at the officials/authorities after the local Hobie 16 was disqualified.

However, this is not a sailing or ISAF issue anymore. If the Star finds its way into the 2016 games it will be as an imposed exception. The relevant fact is that ISAF is changing course and we can hope for more positive changes in the future. Congratulations to all who worked so hard to achieve this!


Luiz
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Paul Pascoe] #232082
05/08/11 09:36 AM
05/08/11 09:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
but I think most people see this as a transation until more countries build up their skiff fleets. Event at my little patch at home, the kids coming out of Optimists and Sabots prefer to sail a 29er to a 420. It will happen, but at the moment, there are too many countries that own boats, have hired coaches, setup junior programs etc, based on the 420/470 and people voted to retain this investment.


Transition??
This is the ultimate... build it... they will come program. ... With the happy outcome that many countries optimized their medal prospects at the expense of others.

Reality check time. Build up Skiff Fleets ????.... HOW COME YOU HAVE TO BUILD???...they are not like Moths after all. The 49ner has been Olympic for 12 years. going on 20

Fact of life. the interest in High Performance Sailing (Skiffs or Cats) is not not some enormous wave sweeping the youth sailors and the sailing leadership of the world.

You have to get people interested before you can build.

We would be thrilled to get 20 teams to US Hobie 16 Junior Nationals. We have petitions not competitions for the US Sailing Junior Championships for the 20 spots. Kids are not beating the doors down for skiffs either. In the Mid Atlantic, One well funded Club bought 6 29ners... used them for 2 months... then mothballed them. So much for kids demanding skiffs. There is no skiff sailing on the east coast.... When do we expect skiff sailing to catch on?

Why worry? The danger is that the Olympics become further removed from the sport and simply loose support. How many US Sailors care? In the US... we don't pay for the Olympics through US Sailing... in other countries... they do pay through their MNA If you don't have a financial interest... do you really care? Even more worrisome, 1f you make the Olympics alien to your experience and irrelevant to the Rank and File experience then how long do you support them?

So, beyond choosing boats that few sailors ever see... much less sail (49ner... Elliot 6) Now they want to fundamentally change the competition. There are no MIXED events in the world that normal sailors compete in. There are no Mixed events that the elite sailors compete in. OPEN events.. yes.... Is this important... Well, in the past when the US sent a MIXED TEAM to the ISAF world championships... they were sent home.... WRONG CHROMOSOMES! .... How different can you make this game and still have relevance to the real world. So, instead of ANY chromosomes... Now you must have the RIGHT mix of chromosomes to play.

If it was difficult to build a multihull junior program before... Now what? For every boy who wants to sail... you must find a girl? Is every thing OPEN until you get the national level or the adult level and then you play musical chairs and create Mixed teams?? ...Now that's a new spin on who gets the girl!

From a US perspective, this ISAF call is a terrible result. Anybody plan on giving money to support the Olympic effort of the mixed mulithull teams that will be forming? Did you give bucks to the Tornado teams in the past? Plan to rejoin US sailing now that we have MIXED Multihulls?

You could understand ISAF and the MNA's spinning this as TRANSITION only if you were clear on the goal. What the hell is the goal? Obviously we abandoned Keel boats this time... If that was the IOC mandate... Why was it such a surprise outcome on the last day of the selections?

Why even discuss 5 disciplines when you must eliminate one of them, and bastardize the other one?

The 5 disciplines. (Boards, Single, Keel, Multi, Skiff) male and female was simple, clear and connected to the boats of the rank and file sailors. What's the direction now?

About the only thing that was clear from the quadrennial FUBAR was that because of the America's Cup action now on Multihulls... All of the MNA's were shamed into fixing their past mistake. All options included a multihull choice.

Ok, principals be damned... we got an event back. BUT, The ramifications of MIXED will be far reaching. So why stop now. We can make the 5 rings into even more of a circus... Lets pick a hard wing cat which is a baby America's Cup machine.... Yeah... that will be cool!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232086
05/08/11 11:57 AM
05/08/11 11:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
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waynemarlow Offline
old hand
waynemarlow  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Lets pick a hard wing cat which is a baby America's Cup machine.... Yeah... that will be cool!

Actually would probably be the cheapest option in the long term with sail costs pretty minimal over a long period of time and all Carbon boats standing up to the practice shedule.

Hey whats wrong with mixed crews, we just have never had boats suitable for mixed crews before with the boats available being far to physically demanding for the girls ( F18 ) or to woosey for the boys, the F16's and the Viper seem to fill that gap pretty well.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232092
05/08/11 06:40 PM
05/08/11 06:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 490
catandahalf Offline
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catandahalf  Offline
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Posts: 490
Check the results for Spring Fever. The top three finishers in the Formula 16 Class were Emily and Nigel Pitt, Millie and Bert Rice Jr., and Riley and Matt McDonald on the new Falcon F - 16. Check out www.gulfsailing.com for the results of the PBYC Sea Buoy Race yesterday. Chris Amador won the day. Bert & Millie were fifth behind Captain KirK on "Catitude," his new shiny NACRA Formula 20 C. They'll get it tuned like a violin in short time.

Mark, contact me via private e. We need to talk soon. You have not been sailing in the South (GYA) so be aware. There is more to the picture than meets your eye. Let's say: deep - six the negativity!!!

I'll change this thread after dinner if LJ does not beat me to it.

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