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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232094
05/08/11 08:13 PM
05/08/11 08:13 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Hard wings will NOT be the cheapest option. The cost of the wing vs. sails may be similar given the typical Olympic sail replacement schedule, but transportation of the wing is very expensive compared to a typical rig, storage is a problem, and if you damage it (likely) repair costs are likely higher than soft sails.

I would love to see wings in the Olympics but until it becomes feasible for the boat (A-Cat and Moth for example) its just going to drive the cost higher than that of campaigning a Star.

One of the biggest things the Tornado had going for it were the relatively low campaign costs. The quality of the boat (thanks Marstrom) was high enough that the same boat could be used for a solid 4 years of campaigning. Sails were on a 3-6 month replacement schedule versus an every regatta replacement schedule for the other Olympic classes. These two things kept the Tornado one of, if not the cheapest boat to campaign (yes, it was cheaper than the Laser).


Scorpion F18
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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: samc99us] #232101
05/09/11 05:28 AM
05/09/11 05:28 AM
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Paul Pascoe Offline
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The AC guys have put forward a concept for the Olympics. 20 foot, wing mast - what a machine. Pics on sail-world somewhere.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Paul Pascoe] #232106
05/09/11 06:26 AM
05/09/11 06:26 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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Logistics of shipping a wing around in containers will be $$$$. Would imagine you would need to take spares also.


Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #232124
05/09/11 10:53 AM
05/09/11 10:53 AM
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brucat Offline
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I'm not saying that wings would save money, but there are probably only a very few (I would say literally a handful of) people on this forum that know how expensive it is to keep up with sail costs for typical Olympic classes (Tornado excluded).

When I first met Bob Merrick, he told me that sails (especially jibs) were only good for one regatta. This was shortly after he won Silver in AUS.

Being the (relatively) cheap H16 sailor that I am, I was totally unable to process this thought, but apparently it has (at least perceived) merit.

BTW, Mark, please try to keep your rants to 4 paragraphs or fewer, you lose me (quickly) after that...

Mike

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Luiz] #232127
05/09/11 11:54 AM
05/09/11 11:54 AM
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by Luiz
The closing words of this article in Sail World are a good summary:

Quote
The Star class has twice before been dropped from the Olympics. On the first occasion, its replacement, the Tempest lasted just two Olympics before the class, which dates back 1911, made it back into the Olympic regatta.

On the second occasion, its demise was only temporary as the class old boy network was able to obtain an 11th medal for itself, as a temporary measure, and then survived the cut to 10 Olympic events.

Few would discount this happening again with Brazil hosting the 2016 Olympics and also being the most successful nation in Star class competition in recent years.

In the end, this vote also determined a major change in the Olympic regatta, and sport. The day will be remembered as the moment when the self-interest and old-boy politics took a body blow in the ISAF, and the Council revolt will extend beyond the 7th day of May 2011.



He is right. The Brazilian Olympic Commitee will probably ask the IOC an extra medal for the Star, they may be in position to negotiate it for anything the IOC needs for the 2016 games.

Their motivation is obvious: if the competition is eliminated that gives the country its best shot at a gold medal and where three of its most famous athletes compete, public opinion and mood about the Olympics will turn negative, which could harm the entire event. Rio's population is known for expressing their opinions openly, mostly through jokes, but also more agressively. A paralel can be made with the last Pan Am games, when trash was thrown at the officials/authorities after the local Hobie 16 was disqualified.

However, this is not a sailing or ISAF issue anymore. If the Star finds its way into the 2016 games it will be as an imposed exception. The relevant fact is that ISAF is changing course and we can hope for more positive changes in the future. Congratulations to all who worked so hard to achieve this!


We may all be being duped...

ISAF may have been playing this ace-in-the-sleeve, knowing that there is an outstanding possibility that this could happen (and I'd be more than shocked if it wasn't being orchestrated already).

It's win-win for ISAF. They get to appear to have changed, and still get an outstanding shot to retain the keelboats (keep in mind, they will presumably still need to discuss building infrastructure and classes for Paralympics).

Politics at this level is far worse than sausage-making...

Mike

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #232129
05/09/11 12:19 PM
05/09/11 12:19 PM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Quote


Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 1605
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
The Tornado and F18 is far from too big, heavy, loads too high for Olympic mixed or all female crew (We are talking about athletic women / men). Both classes both have mixed and all women crews currently racing at both club and International level. There are a lot of female sailors out there who would handle the boats comfortably, not only currently sailing multies but from other classes such as 470s, Lasers, RSX etc. Could see a few cross into Multi sailing.

I would like to see a OD boat such as a Viper as the next Olympic boat but would be just as happy with the Tornado.




Well for the TV/video... you really like big.... Therefore, I would bet on the One Design Tornado or another 20 footer with the rig scaled back a bit to win out in the end.

You need a step up program... if, the junior step up boat is something like an F16/SL16/Viper/Dragoon then you usually need something bigger for the adults (room in the boat at least)

You can also sell the notion... same platform... different rig for men/women if you get two mulit's down the road.... (begging the question... how do you kill off the Finns. )

The Tornado platform regulations are set... the loop holes have been closed (mast issues) (sail issues) and the equipment proven to hold up for a couple of cycles.

Another strategy...Pick a 16 footer for mixed...spec small sails for juniors... Long term.. Plan on replacing the Finn.. with a Single Handed Multihull with spin for men and keep the 16 footer for women.


Paul Pascoe asked a great question... Why was the Tornado not accepted world wide for the previous 20 years? Expanding on that question... Look at the F18 Worlds... even fewer countries represented.... Even the Hobie 16 has fewer countries represented these days. Make no mistake... the AC cup brought the multi back ... However, the underlying problem of participation in multihulls world wide exists. Now add the need to get women campaigning on two High performance boats (skiffs and mixed multis) ... the challenge is not trivial.

4 years ago.... the request to the rank and file was... show up at worlds and other international events AND expand the sport to the next tier of countries... OK...we lucked out with the AC ... Now we need a strategy to grow the sport world wide...Increase the number of women, grow the sport at the youth level world wide AND MAKE GOOD TV.
Now that is a challenge1



Last edited by Mark Schneider; 05/09/11 12:20 PM.

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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232130
05/09/11 12:40 PM
05/09/11 12:40 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
MarkMT Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

Plan on replacing the Finn.. with a Single Handed Multihull with spin for men...

Yes! That would be very cool.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: brucat] #232136
05/09/11 05:14 PM
05/09/11 05:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Luiz
The closing words of this article in Sail World are a good summary:

Quote
The Star class has twice before been dropped from the Olympics. On the first occasion, its replacement, the Tempest lasted just two Olympics before the class, which dates back 1911, made it back into the Olympic regatta.

On the second occasion, its demise was only temporary as the class old boy network was able to obtain an 11th medal for itself, as a temporary measure, and then survived the cut to 10 Olympic events.

Few would discount this happening again with Brazil hosting the 2016 Olympics and also being the most successful nation in Star class competition in recent years.

In the end, this vote also determined a major change in the Olympic regatta, and sport. The day will be remembered as the moment when the self-interest and old-boy politics took a body blow in the ISAF, and the Council revolt will extend beyond the 7th day of May 2011.



He is right. The Brazilian Olympic Commitee will probably ask the IOC an extra medal for the Star, they may be in position to negotiate it for anything the IOC needs for the 2016 games.

Their motivation is obvious: if the competition is eliminated that gives the country its best shot at a gold medal and where three of its most famous athletes compete, public opinion and mood about the Olympics will turn negative, which could harm the entire event. Rio's population is known for expressing their opinions openly, mostly through jokes, but also more agressively. A paralel can be made with the last Pan Am games, when trash was thrown at the officials/authorities after the local Hobie 16 was disqualified.

However, this is not a sailing or ISAF issue anymore. If the Star finds its way into the 2016 games it will be as an imposed exception. The relevant fact is that ISAF is changing course and we can hope for more positive changes in the future. Congratulations to all who worked so hard to achieve this!


We may all be being duped...

ISAF may have been playing this ace-in-the-sleeve, knowing that there is an outstanding possibility that this could happen (and I'd be more than shocked if it wasn't being orchestrated already).

It's win-win for ISAF. They get to appear to have changed, and still get an outstanding shot to retain the keelboats (keep in mind, they will presumably still need to discuss building infrastructure and classes for Paralympics).

Politics at this level is far worse than sausage-making...

Mike


Someone commented in another discussion forum that the host country is allowed to choose one extra competition for the games. Is this true?


Luiz
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232139
05/09/11 06:08 PM
05/09/11 06:08 PM
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Vancouver, BC
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Actually, the fixed wing concept would mean the sheeting strength differences between men/women would not be much of a factor...hard wings don't need all the muscle power.


Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Lets pick a hard wing cat which is a baby America's Cup machine.... Yeah... that will be cool!

Actually would probably be the cheapest option in the long term with sail costs pretty minimal over a long period of time and all Carbon boats standing up to the practice shedule.

Hey whats wrong with mixed crews, we just have never had boats suitable for mixed crews before with the boats available being far to physically demanding for the girls ( F18 ) or to woosey for the boys, the F16's and the Viper seem to fill that gap pretty well.


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado] #232140
05/09/11 06:11 PM
05/09/11 06:11 PM
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Vancouver, BC
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Class selection will likely come down to who has the most tight class rules, construction standards, longevity.
The T with its proven history in these area makes it a strong candidate.


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado] #232146
05/09/11 10:32 PM
05/09/11 10:32 PM
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Paul Pascoe Offline
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Luiz,

The host country got to choose one class in a couple of Olympics immediately after the Second World War (UK Firefly, AUS Sharpie), but I think that '56 may have been the last time this was the case.

Paul

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Paul Pascoe] #232148
05/10/11 12:04 AM
05/10/11 12:04 AM
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Posts: 1,203
uk
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Paul
That said, do you think that brazil will get the chance of an extra event this time?
There doesn't seem to have been the same sort of reaction to this decision as there was when the Multihull got dropped


Paul

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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: TEAMVMG] #232151
05/10/11 03:23 AM
05/10/11 03:23 AM
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waynemarlow Offline
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Why do we get all so luv eyed with the Tornado, I know its the proven champion but as with all champions at some stage they are going to get beaten and surpassed, heres our chance to introduce a new kid on the block that we can all aspire to over the next 20 years.

An over weight F16 ( unfortunately we cannot deal with the handicap issues of light boats in the short term due to the organising committees not wanting to upset too many other established classes ) with banana boards, has all the street cred ( good looks ), soft handicap to win handicap races, with lots of toys to play with and if we were really brave, a hard wing as without doubt they will be with us more and more in the short term ( forget the transport issue, you still have to move 16ft boats and long masts so just adding a bit of width to the mast is not going to create many more problems, the moths already have worked out the issues on their masts ).

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Paul Pascoe] #232152
05/10/11 03:43 AM
05/10/11 03:43 AM
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Western Australia
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the sharpie was the international "12 square meter" or heavyweight sharpie 230 kg (510 lb). It is NOT the Au "lightweight" sharpie 90 kg (198 lb). Similar hull shape but a hundred kgs different in weight. North Hemisphere types always love their heavy boats. The other is the heavy weigh was clinker while the "need for speed" Addison brothers in Western Australia used ply, as was common in post war Aussie and kiwi boat building.

I the rig is also different with the lightweight having a modern sloop rig and heavyweight using a gaff rig. But who invited the 12 meter sharpie to the Olympics I dont know.

Last edited by Stewart; 05/10/11 04:24 AM.
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232153
05/10/11 04:10 AM
05/10/11 04:10 AM
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Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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I know overweight is a comfort factor for north hemisphere types but why?
The boat you describe is NOT an F16!!

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Stewart] #232154
05/10/11 04:42 AM
05/10/11 04:42 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232155
05/10/11 04:52 AM
05/10/11 04:52 AM
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I'm a huge fan of the F16, but for the Olympics I think an 18-20 foot boat is going to have more TV appeal.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232158
05/10/11 06:10 AM
05/10/11 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Why do we get all so luv eyed with the Tornado, I know its the proven champion but as with all champions at some stage they are going to get beaten and surpassed, heres our chance to introduce a new kid on the block that we can all aspire to over the next 20 years.

An over weight F16 ( unfortunately we cannot deal with the handicap issues of light boats in the short term due to the organising committees not wanting to upset too many other established classes ) with banana boards, has all the street cred ( good looks ), soft handicap to win handicap races, with lots of toys to play with and if we were really brave, a hard wing as without doubt they will be with us more and more in the short term ( forget the transport issue, you still have to move 16ft boats and long masts so just adding a bit of width to the mast is not going to create many more problems, the moths already have worked out the issues on their masts ).


Those of us that were lucky enough to sail a Tornado in anger understand the fuss! It was a truly awesome boat and perfectly suited to the rigours of Olympic level campaigning.

It was big and powerful and was the undisputed king at all the Olympic class events. We need the new boat to be at least as awesome as the Tornado and to achieve that we need to first get the size right and 18ft is the minimum for such a task.

If you want as you say, something "we can all aspire to over the next 20 years" then you need a boat that excites both the sailors and the spectators. It needs to have an edginess to it and should be a challenge to sail well. Remember: the Olympics is for Athletes and as such we should expect the boat to be a challenge to sail. Example the 49er: Not really suited for club sailing but it is great to watch Olympic level teams sailing them to the best of their ability.

A little boat that encourages super light crew weights is not in line with any of the above criteria.

Its really perfect to fit in the Youth boat slot which is poorly served right now, and for sure an area that needs attention as much as the Olympic boat.

If I was looking for an area to promote a 16ft boat then I would be pushing the Youth path with vigour.



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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Stewart] #232160
05/10/11 06:44 AM
05/10/11 06:44 AM
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waynemarlow Offline
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Originally Posted by Stewart
I know overweight is a comfort factor for north hemisphere types but why


Sadly the legacy of the handicap sytems we use such as SCHRS which punishes anything that is light weight, one has to only look at the A Class and F18's, at the moment the A gives time to the F18's similarly the Uni F16's still give time to the F18's.

Any Olympic contender in my opinion should toss the known values out and build from scratch with the recent knowledge gained from the AC and the likes.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232161
05/10/11 07:30 AM
05/10/11 07:30 AM

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They should use a 25' version of the new AC cats

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