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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232163
05/10/11 08:58 AM
05/10/11 08:58 AM
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Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Originally Posted by macca

Remember: the Olympics is for Athletes and as such we should expect the boat to be a challenge to sail.



Wish I could believe that statement. But past history shows ISAF has rarely used this principle. The Contender in its original form if I recall was a successor to the Finn. The design won the regatta but didn't get the slot. To add insult to injury the original Contender was about (36 Kg) 80 lbs lighter than the minimum weight imposed on the class by the I.Y.R.U. when the boat was given International status. Don't select and make it heavier and slower. Ben/bob designed built a serious light weight athletes boat.

Still maybe they will get closer to the "ideal"
As for the 49er it was the best boat in the regatta but it was monkeys ability to politic that got it the gig.

Last edited by Stewart; 05/10/11 09:18 AM.
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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232173
05/10/11 11:28 AM
05/10/11 11:28 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Macca

Quote
Example the 49er: Not really suited for club sailing but it is great to watch Olympic level teams sailing them to the best of their ability.


What kind of mere mortal sailing fleet does the 49ner represent in the world?

Who exactly is supposed to have some sort of affinity for the 49ner sailors and their boats? I bet the majority of US multihull sailors could not ID a single 49ner sailor from the USA. We have no relation to them. We don't see them on the water or beach, they don't cross sail our boats and vice versa. .... it's just a different world and we don't care. The 49ner is the vanguard for the X games version of sailing... IE unreal events disconnected from the sport that most of us compete in.

So... you want an edgy boat.
I think if you polled the world about the Tornado... the word ClASSIC would most likely come up.

It's a real choose the path moment here... do you want boats in the olympics that the rank and file relate to.... OR do you want an extreme version of the sport embodied in a maxed out boat. As you say... suitable for the spectators,

Personally, I think "spectators" is fools gold...
I ask... if you have to invent extreme variations for the Olympics to survive... why should we support them at all. and Somebody is paying for this show.

I view Pinnacle of the Sport to mean... the competition is reflective of the real world internationally. Moth's are cool... but 100 of them world wide is not Olympic.. Who do they represent?

Tornado's were not extreme when compared to F18's.... Just more refined and elegant after years of invention and tweaking. I see the step up from F18's to Tornado's as natural.

My hunch is... the IOC will not want extreme... they are going to want to see LOTS OF NEW COUNTRIES getting into the game.... I doubt Extreme works for the little sailing countries. (See 470 still in olympics)

I think the path we are now on.... will further dissociate the Olympics from the real world....




crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232177
05/10/11 01:01 PM
05/10/11 01:01 PM
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France
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Mmm, we have 49er at our club. 5 of them. They race all year. There are a bunch of other skiffs like Musto skiffs and RS600. We are also the home port for australians 18 in the UK, 4 of them in the parking lot... We do sail with those guys.

I don't see those boats "disconnected from the sport", on the contrary: I see them as what the sport is all about.

On the other hand there is no 470 here. Zero, nada. For me a 470 is a relic of another age, a good fun boat, but not representative of the sport. No Finn either.

My ideal olympic cat would be a one design double trap 18 footer with a wing and a gennaker. But a Tornado will do.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: pepin] #232187
05/10/11 04:33 PM
05/10/11 04:33 PM
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470 is in just about the same boat as Stars, as far as I can tell. Seems like no one sails them unless they're thinking about the Olympics.

I personally don't see the Olympics as the pinnacle of the sport. Like it or not, that gig goes to AC (although the people who think they are "true match racers" don't actually recognize the cat cups).

My proof? An Olympic medal is essentially considered a pre-requisite to get a spot aboard an AC boat. The inverse is not true.

Mike

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232189
05/10/11 05:07 PM
05/10/11 05:07 PM
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Australia
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Macca

Quote
Example the 49er: Not really suited for club sailing but it is great to watch Olympic level teams sailing them to the best of their ability.


What kind of mere mortal sailing fleet does the 49ner represent in the world?

Who exactly is supposed to have some sort of affinity for the 49ner sailors and their boats? I bet the majority of US multihull sailors could not ID a single 49ner sailor from the USA. We have no relation to them. We don't see them on the water or beach, they don't cross sail our boats and vice versa. .... it's just a different world and we don't care. The 49ner is the vanguard for the X games version of sailing... IE unreal events disconnected from the sport that most of us compete in.

So... you want an edgy boat.
I think if you polled the world about the Tornado... the word ClASSIC would most likely come up.

It's a real choose the path moment here... do you want boats in the olympics that the rank and file relate to.... OR do you want an extreme version of the sport embodied in a maxed out boat. As you say... suitable for the spectators,

Personally, I think "spectators" is fools gold...
I ask... if you have to invent extreme variations for the Olympics to survive... why should we support them at all. and Somebody is paying for this show.

I view Pinnacle of the Sport to mean... the competition is reflective of the real world internationally. Moth's are cool... but 100 of them world wide is not Olympic.. Who do they represent?

Tornado's were not extreme when compared to F18's.... Just more refined and elegant after years of invention and tweaking. I see the step up from F18's to Tornado's as natural.

My hunch is... the IOC will not want extreme... they are going to want to see LOTS OF NEW COUNTRIES getting into the game.... I doubt Extreme works for the little sailing countries. (See 470 still in olympics)

I think the path we are now on.... will further dissociate the Olympics from the real world....




Spectators are real, and there is proof:

Take the X40's, Round Texel, and even our little team racing event in NED a few weeks ago. We had more than 5000 people watching online and that was with the Sailing Anarchy feed not working..

Spectators are real, all we have to do it translate the excitement of our sport into a format that they can access.

ACRM are working very hard to do that right now and it will be available to us as well.

You dont see normal skiers belting down the mountain at more than 120km/h and you never go for a bike ride on a sunday afternoon on an indoor velodrome in a time trial, I have never cross country skied with a rifle on my back and shot at targets in the forest....

Its a sport and at the very top level we need to make it a challenge, not a carbon copy of what we do every weekend, this is the pinnacle of our sport and it should be suitably challenging.



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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232193
05/10/11 10:07 PM
05/10/11 10:07 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Quote
You dont see normal skiers belting down the mountain at more than 120km/h


True... but you see normal guys going down normal hills on equipment signed by that guy.... Point... is that people relate to the sport of down hill because it's something they do and aspire to do better.

Quote
you never go for a bike ride on a sunday afternoon on an indoor velodrome in a time trial,


And this event is a spectacle. Normal people race their carbon bikes in normal road races.. and aspire to do it like Lance Armstrong... (minus the cheating and the drugs)!

Having dumped the keel boats which normal sailors recognize and relate to... I think the pressure will be on for the new events to be ones that rank and file sailors recognize and will support. In Olympic terms... How many countries compete for the spots.

World wide.. how broad is the support for High Performance Sailing? (2012 has only ONE High performance event 49ners besides boards) We have the same problem now that took out the Tornado in the first place... Few countries choose to play!

Looking at 49ners... It's the same demographic as the Tornado (which was eliminated) or the F18 class currently. Women's skiffs... are equally narrow in their appeal and less popular.

As much as I agree with choosing a boat like the Tornado, which challenges the Olympic sailors (and is spectacular)

Perhaps a boat like the Hobie 16 which is popular world wide (not as spectacular) but would likely get more poor countries competing might be better for ISAF and the high performance sailing. (There are certainly better and higher performance boats then Lasers... but nothing is as simple and popular)

If the two skiffs and boards are the high profile TV stars... maybe the multihull niche is assigned the job of broaden the appeal of High Performance Sailing world wide.

I predict that it will come down to these other factors which are real philosophical choices more so then hardware choices. The politics are just beginning!




crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232194
05/10/11 10:33 PM
05/10/11 10:33 PM
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Australia
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We can argue the details forever, but the fundamentals are the same.

people go sailing on beach cats every weekend, just as people ski downhill for fun. The difference is in the intention to go to the limit and the suitable equipment to do so.

Don't kid yourself that a set of downhill ski's are the same as you can buy for your weekend fun.

Same goes for the bikes, they are specialised for the level of competition and as such they are suited to Olympic level racing and not so much for a fun joyride.



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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232197
05/10/11 10:55 PM
05/10/11 10:55 PM
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Vancouver, BC
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Hobie products have been up for consideration in the past. Typically, they are not accepted due to things like lack of build quality standards (significant boat weight differences etc) and durability. These are very important to the athletes and also to the selection committees. If the H16 is to have fighting shot, it must be tightened up significantly in build quality control and component design. This would create a disparity from the mainstream class boats, raise purchase prices and thus negatively affect one of the biggest advantages of the class..the low price point.

Olympics is not about what "Joe-SixPack" sails...it's about pushing the teams & equipement to the max...teams will exploit rule loop-holes and percieved performance advantages in component differences wherever they can. This is way you need a tightly controlled boat class rule & manufacturing spec. Tornado has struggled with this since the beginning, but the history of the class in the games proves my point about what the teams will do.



Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232198
05/10/11 10:57 PM
05/10/11 10:57 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline OP
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I get your point about the ideal world.
I agree with Mike as well i
Quote
t's about pushing the teams & equipement to the max.

I agree with both of you on what the ideal world would use. Unfortunately this is just magical or wishful thinking...

The Laser, 470 and Formula boards are NOT specialized fantastic sailing machines... the Star??? Anything extraordinarily about the Elliot??? these are not pushing the equipment to the max!

Wonderful boats and Olympics are not synonymous...
Fact of life... they toss boats like the Tornado and Europe for POS like the Laser and Nothing.

I don't understand Stars... but this is an Olympic Class like the Laser that actually has a race series that I see on the water in my world.

They have thrown out great boats for popular ones before...

How can you go wrong with the public by picking popular?

The IOC is demanding participation world wide.. ... I bet the multihull class being mixed is ISAF's solution to this problem as well.



Last edited by Mark Schneider; 05/10/11 11:02 PM.

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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232200
05/11/11 12:29 AM
05/11/11 12:29 AM
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uk
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I think that we/ISAF need to establish what the Olympic Multihull is meant to be;
Is it a popular boat that is sailed by m&f teams the world over - making the olympics a target for everyone

Or

Is a boat that we all aspire to be good enough to sail even if we are accomplished f18 or tornado pros. It will then be sailed by specialist sailors from various backgrounds specifically trained to get a medal

I think the latter and we are kidding ourselves if we think that we know any existing m/f teams that are going to be in the running


Paul

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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232202
05/11/11 02:13 AM
05/11/11 02:13 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
What kind of mere mortal sailing fleet does the 49ner represent in the world?

Who exactly is supposed to have some sort of affinity for the 49ner sailors and their boats? I bet the majority of US multihull sailors could not ID a single 49ner sailor from the USA. We have no relation to them. We don't see them on the water or beach, they don't cross sail our boats and vice versa. .... it's just a different world and we don't care. The 49ner is the vanguard for the X games version of sailing... IE unreal events disconnected from the sport that most of us compete in.


Should spend some time in AUS mate. 12, 14, 16, 18 skiffs. Plently of hypo monos that compare to or are more extreme than the 49ers........ At club level.

Last edited by Tornado_ALIVE; 05/11/11 02:14 AM.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232204
05/11/11 02:23 AM
05/11/11 02:23 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Why do we get all so luv eyed with the Tornado, I know its the proven champion but as with all champions at some stage they are going to get beaten and surpassed, heres our chance to introduce a new kid on the block that we can all aspire to over the next 20 years.

An over weight F16 ( unfortunately we cannot deal with the handicap issues of light boats in the short term due to the organising committees not wanting to upset too many other established classes ) with banana boards, has all the street cred ( good looks ), soft handicap to win handicap races, with lots of toys to play with and if we were really brave, a hard wing as without doubt they will be with us more and more in the short term ( forget the transport issue, you still have to move 16ft boats and long masts so just adding a bit of width to the mast is not going to create many more problems, the moths already have worked out the issues on their masts ).


Those of us that were lucky enough to sail a Tornado in anger understand the fuss! It was a truly awesome boat and perfectly suited to the rigours of Olympic level campaigning.

It was big and powerful and was the undisputed king at all the Olympic class events. We need the new boat to be at least as awesome as the Tornado and to achieve that we need to first get the size right and 18ft is the minimum for such a task.

If you want as you say, something "we can all aspire to over the next 20 years" then you need a boat that excites both the sailors and the spectators. It needs to have an edginess to it and should be a challenge to sail well. Remember: the Olympics is for Athletes and as such we should expect the boat to be a challenge to sail. Example the 49er: Not really suited for club sailing but it is great to watch Olympic level teams sailing them to the best of their ability.

A little boat that encourages super light crew weights is not in line with any of the above criteria.

Its really perfect to fit in the Youth boat slot which is poorly served right now, and for sure an area that needs attention as much as the Olympic boat.

If I was looking for an area to promote a 16ft boat then I would be pushing the Youth path with vigour.



Have to agree with you 100% on this, always love jumping back on the T. I would prefer to see the Tornado or another HP 20 footer, however as a mixed, the equiptment will always be a compramise to cater.

If it is an 18 footer, please not the Tiger or any other class that falls in the F18 box rule. Designing a new 18 footer, with 3 sails, curved foils and lighter weight would be a good option (Soft sail)


Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #232210
05/11/11 08:41 AM
05/11/11 08:41 AM
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Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Paul Pascoe writes:

Quote
So what next?
The immediate task is for the Equipment Committee to come out with a spec for a multihull and a plan for evaluating potential boats. This will include a trial of some type, probably in Europe and most likely in conjunction with the evaluation for the Womens skiff. We need to make sure we get the right boat in the Olympics, and by "right" this means a boat that will not leave us in the same position as we are now, where a fantastic boat was voted out of the Olympics because not enough countries were willing, for whatever reason, to campaign at the Olympics. We need to look at two things:
1. What were the characteristics of the 2008 Tornado that meant that it wasn't embraced around the world, and we need to be brutally honest in this assessment
2. What are the characteristics of the Laser and the 470 that means that they are embraced around the world
We also need to keep in mind the ISAF Youth Worlds and make sure there is a clear stepping stone from the Youth to Olympic boat.


Two Key points... they will evaluate both new classes together.
(People will view these choices as a package... no matter what you say)

Participation is the underlying key factor.

Alive... I could have guessed AUS... given Bethwaite and the country's history with skiffs... But...I can't find participation or growth of skiffs outside the EU and North America. The Brits report that they have lots of little skiff classes but participation has not grown over the last 10 years.

Help me out!

Who has a plausible answer to Paul Pascoe's two issues.

do you say... .the past be damn we are going for the ideal Olympic boat?

Versus do you say... those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it... We are going for a boat certain to be popular world wide?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #232213
05/11/11 09:16 AM
05/11/11 09:16 AM
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Western Australia
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completely agree.. when a kid starts out in a JD , Flying Ant or VJ and gets the bug.. Where is he or she going to go next? A boat twice as big but half the speed or to a boat that is bigger and badder?

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: TEAMVMG] #232214
05/11/11 09:17 AM
05/11/11 09:17 AM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
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Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
Paul
That said, do you think that brazil will get the chance of an extra event this time?
There doesn't seem to have been the same sort of reaction to this decision as there was when the Multihull got dropped


I don't know if they will get the chance, but if they do, I bet they will choose to bring the Star back, regardless the public reation.

If the Star gets an extra medal from the IOC it will not be the first time. It didn't happen due to popular reaction in the past and if it happens now it will be due to political pressure from the organizers of the game. With Robert Scheidt and Torben Grael campaigning in the Star, Brazil's best shot at a medal in the entire 2016 games is if the Stars get an extra medal.


Luiz
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232215
05/11/11 09:17 AM
05/11/11 09:17 AM
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and the Kiwis as well!!

Last edited by Stewart; 05/11/11 09:19 AM.
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Stewart] #232221
05/11/11 12:37 PM
05/11/11 12:37 PM
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I would rather not see multihulls in the Olympics at all if it is a choice between a mixed team or not at all. I'm completely baffled by that decision. It does not represent our sport one bit.

While we're at it, let's choose a boat that requires no strength or athleticism on the part of the sailors.

Let's force it so that the Olympic hockey teams are mixed too.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado] #232222
05/11/11 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Tornado
Hobie products have been up for consideration in the past. Typically, they are not accepted due to things like lack of build quality standards (significant boat weight differences etc) and durability. These are very important to the athletes and also to the selection committees. If the H16 is to have fighting shot, it must be tightened up significantly in build quality control and component design. This would create a disparity from the mainstream class boats, raise purchase prices and thus negatively affect one of the biggest advantages of the class..the low price point.


I don't know about all of that for the H16. It's already accepted for the Pan Am games, and has been used for the ISAF Youth Worlds.

The boat has gone through some continuous improvement through the years, which has been widely accepted by the class, especially as durability is improved. I don't know any H16 sailors that would have a problem with the improvements you mention (tightened weight ranges, etc.).

The one issue that IS divisive is spinnakers.

Mike

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: oxj] #232223
05/11/11 12:39 PM
05/11/11 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by oxj
I would rather not see multihulls in the Olympics at all if it is a choice between a mixed team or not at all.


I believe that horse has already left the barn...

Mike

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: oxj] #232229
05/11/11 02:59 PM
05/11/11 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by oxj
I would rather not see multihulls in the Olympics at all if it is a choice between a mixed team or not at all. I'm completely baffled by that decision. It does not represent our sport one bit.

While we're at it, let's choose a boat that requires no strength or athleticism on the part of the sailors.

Let's force it so that the Olympic hockey teams are mixed too.


Oh No You Dint!

http://www.unhwildcats.com/sports/wice/index


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