What can we do if the multihull selected for the Olympics, is not really good for multihull as a whole? Even if we don’t get a say in the equipment selection, there are some things we could do, if we want to.

In government or big corporations the people who need something don’t usually get a big say in the selection. However if you can write the rules on what the selected provider has to do to get paid, you can usually get what you need. In Olympic Sailing, paid is being selected to go to the Olympics. Each country can make their own rules for selection and the Class Association for the Olympic boat can make rules too.

For example, if the Tiger were selected. You don’t want the F18 Fleet destroyed , so you quickly pass a rule that says Olympic points are from F18, Regional, National, and World Championships’ as administered by F18 plus Olympic Class Regattas . The F18’s pass a rule that’s says since the Olympic multihull is special , it can only acquire Olympic points sailed box stock(sails, blocks, rudders, etc) as delivered from the factory say Jan 1 2011, lock it in like a Laser. Olympic sailors on other F18’s sail under normal F18 rules for points. Olympic sailors want those points, a box stock Tiger will be at a disadvantage, in a f18 regatta It’s not perfect and it’s not fair to everyone but the F18’s might be able to survive carrying the monster that the Olympic Multihull will become.

Another example would be, we all want share the Olympic innovations. Give points to Olympic sailors in their local Regional, and National Championships’ in selected other classes. Depending on how you weight the points, the effect could range from letting others classes see what the Olympic Sailors are doing, to giving top sailors in other classes a chance. One thing I would suggest in the US is making the Alter Cup and it’s qualifiers count toward selection.

There is only one Olympic multihull; it will have a huge impact on multihulls in the future. Since the selection of the Tornado, multihulls have moved forward. Compare this to the Laser, it has pretty much just sat still but, on the plus side, the short life of a Laser in the top ranks has produced a lot of good starter boats.

The equipment section is just the start, next negeoiate for rules.

Carl,

I think your question is very appropriate.

I would add yours to Paul Pasco's and add a few more impt questions.

Paul asked
Do we need a familiar popular boat that the rest of the world joins us in sailing... or do we hope the world will have the same passion for a new hot design cat and join us and compete in this new class?

In the past, the Tornado drove the progress we saw in the other cat classes. Will that be the case for Mixed multihull moving forward? Will the AC competition drive innovation? Will it be the commercial builders innovating?.

Will the Olympic competition of mixed multi's inspire the young sailors of the world... or will the AC cup draw everyone's attention?

In your for instances... I would step up a level.. It seems that you forsee an interrelated mission of Olympic Sailing and Class Sailing.
The USA experience with a small class is that the Olympic athletes call the shots, All class decisions must work for their campaigns or they won't participate. Just like everyone, they have time and money constraints and the ISAF circuit and training camps set the schedule.

So, I would frame it as;, Does the new Olympic class share a mission with the class of non Olympic sailors?

So far we have made two decisions. 1) It is essential to get back into the Olympics.... CHECK.

2) Any format that accomplishes goal 1 is OK... So, we have MIXED MULTIHULL.

Now it gets interesting!... Having caught the passing car.... the cat is now faced with what to do with it and for what end.

Really? Development progress? What other progress do you possibly mean?

I thought the spinnaker addition to the Torndado came along after the F18's and Inter 20's already had it? And for new 'development' I look to the A cats...

The Tornado rules are pretty tight, which doesn't allow a whole lot of development, right?

I think we went over this before...and I also don't agree that the Tornado trickled down much development to standard beach cats beyond, perhaps, some rigging tricks and some sail shape (perhaps). They were late to adopt spinnakers and have an outdated dagger board configuration.

Thanks Kris. Had the same reaction, just didn't have the time then to post.

ISAF/IOC should consider taking a page out of the US Sailing multihull championships, the Alter Cup, a round robin series on supplied boats. If the selected boat is part of a formula class, ISAF should allow the boat to be actively updated within the class. Just like the Olympics’ venue is different every time through a competition, the selected boat should be identified for every Olympics through a selection process. Ideally, the select boat would be a performance boat that is commonly raced by both club and "pro" racers, and price is a function in the selection process.

Let's take it one step further (putting on the flame suit). The ISAF identifies a formula class from which the boat will be selected and each Olympic trials would be the country's nationals for that formula class. If successful, this will set the ground work to expand the number of multihull events. Hypothetically, we could ultimately end up with the following:

Men's - F18
Women's - F16
Youth - F16 or Hobie 16 w/chute (I know its not a formula class and the chute is undesirable to the adult Hobies)
Single - F16 or A-Cat (A-Cats may have to adopt some development limitations for National competitions which may not sit well within the class).

Mixed - ? TBA: The rap that the F16 would encourage light weight teams to the point of encouraging unhealthy diet practices should send a signal to adopt minimum crew member BMI requirements in combination with minimum crew weights (weight can be added so not to discriminate against smaller people) if selected.

It could work. It preserves formula class development with multiple manufacturers. It gives the club racers satisfaction of being able to affordably race in an Olympic class. It removes the equipment variable. Yes, many items would have to be ironed out but that is beyond the scope of this post. It does potentially threaten the market for formula classes and non-formula boats that are not identified as Olympic classes.

Yes boat development, (Sail shape,) Zucolli built the custom mains for many Olympic programs on their dime and turned that knowledge into F18 sails. Technique... Wild thing for down wind sailing (mitch booth innovated this one). Rigging, snuffers of today come about because the T class sailors tried everything to get an edge.... Otherwise... you could still have end pole snuffers....

The point is... the T class rules were loose enough (by design) and the drive to win promoted innovation using all of the Olympic funding dollars. These guys spent the money first. Many cat classes adopted these innovations after they were proven.

There was a cost to this as well.. You could turn all of this activity around and claim it was cheating or crossing the line (mast issues, Sail material issues, upwind spin sail for China Olympics). It was an instructive period for ISAF. The T class was locking down many of the rules for years and generating lots of upset in the class as it happened but they really locked the rules down to eliminate all of this activity after they were booted.

What will the next Olympic Class do.... It is unlikely to take the same path as the Tornado.... But, If you lock up the Olympic Class into a strict one design... you stop all of this tweaking activity.

Is this a good thing for Cat Racing or not? You Nacra 20 sailors locked down your mainsail with the SMOD... Good move or not? Lasers do not innovate with their sail.... Good for the sport or not.

I assert that in the past, the Olympic multihull led. In the future, the Olympic Multihull looks like it will reflect a point in time of development and be frozen by the rules. The boat will be a boring non issue (unless it falls apart)... The class interest will depend only on the competition and the medal every 4 years.

If Mixed Olympic Multihulls becomes a narrow competition practiced by 20 countries with a couple of teams each trying for 18 slots with sailors on small SMOD boats... will we pay attention?.... My worry is that people will loose interest in the Olympic Multihull Competition with Mixed and with No development allowed.

For Example.... How many people pay attention to the Pan AM games... Why? Is it a big deal for US Hobie 16 sailors... Hell... I remember a couple of Rehobath SC weekend regattas where the H16 winner was the Pan Am rep. It did not seem that big of a deal to me.

Paul Pascoe is absolutely correct... We have some very important choices to make and we should be clear on the potential impact. What should be the pinnacle of the sport...
could slip into irrelevance if we screw this up.

Thank You Mark, you brought up some points and made me do some thinking. Plus sailing a race in heavy turbulent air last night against mixed crews and talking with some made me rethink a couple of things. I now believe that a mixed crew Olympic Class is going to end up being separate class.

Mark,

Whether YOU like it or not, the Olympics isn't SUPPOSED to be about the EQUIPMENT, but the athletes. If that's boring to you, don't watch. SMOD would be the best option because it is the best way to achieve that goal.

Your point about the Pan Am Games is a red herring. As far as I can tell, no one watches ANY of the Pan Am sports, it's not just a sailing problem.

And for at least the last 14 years that I know of, the selection event is held at the NORTH AMERICANS, not just a "weekend regatta." And yes, the Hobie 16 NAs have been hosted by the good folks of Fleet 106 at RBSA in Dewey Beach, actually twice in the last 14 years.

Try to keep up...

Mike

Mike,

Well some think of sailing as the happy marriage of equipment and sailing. The history of the olympics is that both ideas were respected. (Stars and Tornados recently) Everyone else screens the factory production lines for the boat or mast they need.

Everyone has an opinion on this matter. and this is the question... What will the next multihull class look like? Will it be good for catamaran sailing?

Nobody watches olympic sailing either.... That's not my point...

I am asking about the interest in a major international competition, the Pan Am games... and how much interest is there in the event. Both to compete in the event and to watch it. What lessons can you learn from this competition that inform the new mixed multihull class. Now is the time to share the wisdom!

I am keeping up...Is the Pan Am games a big deal for Hobie 16 Sailors?
This model fits more of what ISAF and the IOC are asking for and we should take a good look at it. ... (I think it is men only though)

Fact of the matter... I seem to remember that the EQUIPMENT was a huge issue at the last event.... The leader was DSQ for cheating with a not legal mast. Also some noise about wider then legal boats. Provided boats as well. Probably why I remembered the event (grin)

Oops. ISAF was not pleased. Equipment is always a factor.

If the IOC put a premium on world wide participation in mixed multihull on a SMOD type boat ... the Hobie 16 is the only solution. Share the wisdom!

(Good to know that my memory was correct that Rehoboth weekend served as a qualifier.... not too old yet... yes it was years ago at Rehoboth.)

The lack of interest in the PanAms is indicative of the lack of interest in competitive sailing in general here in the US. For Latin American countries, it's a big deal.

The fact that the sailing population, and specifically the cat sailing community, can't rally behind our PanAm Reps with more vigor, really tells the tail of how fractured the (cat) sailing community is. Here in The States at least.

The Pan Ams are a big deal to those at the top of the H16 circuit (those who would actually have a shot to go).

We also do take interest in ISAF Youth worlds on cats, etc. so it's not totally hopeless.

I don't see how anyone could be thrown out for cheating with a provided-boat event (at least, not for illegal masts, extra-wide boats, etc.). Totally losing me here.

Mike

is javelin, shot put, or hammer throw big outside the US?

Is that technology driven or athlete driven?

Are those spectator sports?

How do they survive?

EXACTLY.... and it was these countries that were decisive in the vote to drop keel boats (unaffordable and no chance to compete in ) and replace with a new boat... women's skiffs.... and Mixed multihull.

As Paul asked.... why was the Tornado not adopted world wide.... Why is the F18 not adopted world wide. Why is the Hobie 16 very important in the Pan Am games?.... Why do they keep lasers and 470s in the game if we need brilliant sailing machines. We need to really understand this message... The Elliot 6's are gone BEFORE THEY WERE EVEN USED in a games.. (now that has to be a record) The Brazilians took delivery of two boats on they day they were killed... don't think they won't kill of the new multi just as quickly...

These countries are going to want a cheap accessible multihull... The simple Hobie 16... matches up to what the countries are voting for now ... And they have a very successful international competition in this class now.

My point is... in reading the ISAF tea leaves and the voting of all of those little countries. The Laser model (popular) looks like the winner over an elite, high tech cat of any size.

How you make this pay off for the good of the sport is an even tougher question.

(Mike, I don't remember all of the details and it is depressing to look up those old reports but things were a bit funny with the provided boats.... All pigs were not equal as it were. It was not a good period for multis. Institutional control is critical for this game.... we don't have a great
track record of late.

What I'm saying is...Yes, it's a big deal, why not get behind it, no matter what you sail. Inter 20, F16, it doesn't matter, get behind the team as a unified force.

My other point is...What's the big deal in Multihull sailing in the US? Not much really, relatively speaking. F18s? A class? H16? The classes aren't really growing like wildfire. In the past 2 years, I've seen regattas take a downward turn here on the West Coast. And what happened to the A class on the West Coast? In NorCal we had 14 boats, now there's 1.

The fracturing that I'm talking about is that everyone is stuck in their own little corner of the sport, which makes it difficult for, say, the F18 guys to get behind an event raced on 16s, like the PanAms.

Here's the PanAms, the event has a ton of support from all over the Americas, and we can't even be bothered to cheer on our team? Talk about missing out on an opportunity to unify the cat sailing community in the US!

There should be a lot more positive hoopla surrounding our team. Why isn't there?

Of course, I'm using the PanAms as an example to show the lackluster support for a much larger event, The Olympics.

If we can't even support the PanAm team, how the heck are we going to support our Olympic reps?

Which is why this thread is titled.

What if the Olympic Mutlihull is not good for Multihulls.

You point out issues that should be addressed as we go through the process. When the game divides and your Olympic sailors live in a small little world disconnected from the rank and file sailors... Does it work?

1) how do they get financial support.
2) How do juniors or young sailors get into the game.

The hardware problem is relatively easy.. Just figure out what ISAF and IOC really want. building a class culture and connecting this class to the rest of the cat sailors and then the Yacht clubs and then to fans... Priceless.

The last PanAm event did not have provided boats. Neither will the next.

2007 Pan Am Games in Brazil. Home team had some questionably class legal mods to their boat (old style mast head on Comptip, corner castings moved out on crossbars and re-riveted to increase beam). Talk to Bob M. - he was there and filed the protest that eventually had the Brazilians tossed out - they would have won the event. Boos and trash thrown at competitors and officials at the prize-giving ceremony.

It's the reason we have the "maximum sail hoist diagrams" in the Hobie Class Rules now.

Mark, still I'm having trouble figuring out how it could be Bad for Multihulls.

Any Multihull exposure is good exposure, right? The trick is to pick the right boat. I think the problem with the Tornado was the initial cost and it was too wide to easily trailer to local events, also a pita to ship overseas. The only guys willing to put up with it were Olympic Wannabees, not club racers.

Maybe we should talk to the Laser guys and see if class membership has increased or decreased since it was chosen as an Olympic boat. I think the 470 would be dead and burried by now if not for Olympic status.

Cost and complexity is what just killed the Star, so let's not go down that road. Keep it simple and cheap, like the Laser and 470, and more Juniors can get into the game.