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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232236
05/11/11 06:28 PM
05/11/11 06:28 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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If we are certain the requirement is for mxed teams on the multi...then I guess I'm wondering why this is not so for some other less physical boat? Heck why not all classes in the games if that's where they are asking the multi to go?



Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232239
05/11/11 07:01 PM
05/11/11 07:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
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Vancouver, BC
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Quote
...by "right" this means a boat that will not leave us in the same position as we are now, where a fantastic boat was voted out of the Olympics because not enough countries were willing, for whatever reason, to campaign at the Olympics.


In actual fact, I don't believe the T was removed because not enough countries canpaigned it..we all know the gory details on how the voting went down...it was accepted once (twice?) before a backroom "deal" was made and 3rd vote took place to drop it. Yes, we can state the boat needs better acceptance globally...but let's not cloud the issue, that is not why it was dropped.

Quote
We need to look at two things:
1. What were the characteristics of the 2008 Tornado that meant that it wasn't embraced around the world, and we need to be brutally honest in this assessment

You're starting with a relatively small slice of sailors (multihullers), then further slicing that to spin boat teams willing to devote time/money to campaigning 200+ days per year x4-8 years. Costs of this were staggering...many non-Euro teams typically kept a second boat kept in Europe for the several key events there while still having one at home for training to avoid shipping and the inherent down time during transit. The reality is you cannot do this on shoestrings...being independantly wealthy or having generous sponsorship is essential.The same should also be true to other Olympic classes...but they start with much larger monhull numbers.
Quote

2. What are the characteristics of the Laser and the 470 that means that they are embraced around the world
We also need to keep in mind the ISAF Youth Worlds and make sure there is a clear stepping stone from the Youth to Olympic boat.

Both boats are essentially entry level, low purchase. Juniors can get into them at local clubs. Parents would consider buying for kids. Any multihull is at a disadvantage in comparison since build costs/storage/portability is higher/more difficult.



Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: oxj] #232243
05/11/11 09:26 PM
05/11/11 09:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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Originally Posted by oxj
I would rather not see multihulls in the Olympics at all if it is a choice between a mixed team or not at all. I'm completely baffled by that decision. It does not represent our sport one bit.

While we're at it, let's choose a boat that requires no strength or athleticism on the part of the sailors.

Let's force it so that the Olympic hockey teams are mixed too.


I agree. I think every sport should be mixed or none at all. Actually I couldn't care less at this point.





Have Fun
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: catman] #232245
05/12/11 04:10 AM
05/12/11 04:10 AM
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Devon Offline
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Mixed cat sailing in the olympics has just lost me, i no longer care to follow mixed cats and have no interest in a olympic event where the female is the skipper and gets all the recognotion in the elite of the sport, its not about being chauvonistic either..The ISAF have just completely got it wrong again, multihull sailing is not ready for a mixed event as a first re-entry, this will do more harm than good, it will only achieve moderate interest and moderate tv viewers, it will take a decade to revert back to open where the multis have by far the strongest numbers support and interest, how dare the ISAF or any one else posting on this forum even think this is not the case..If the ISAF want to increase viewer numbers and not loose another sailing event then they have chosen the wrong path yet again! There just arent enough mixed teams out there for a reason..They are in a huge minority verses all male teams, high performance cat sailing is an extreme on the edge sport which is far more sutiable/desirable to male than female, i feel mixed olympic cat teams will only elite the AC sailers to represent the pinnacle of cat sailers in the leed up boats from AClass to C20`s to AC45`s and to the AC72`s, this mixed cat teams in the olympics will lower the status of olympic sailers compared to the sailers training and competing to climb the AC ladder, no longer will the olympic mixed sailers qualify to be the pinnacle of the sport, when the pinnacle will be the AC multihull sailers working their way to the top of the event.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Devon] #232246
05/12/11 04:45 AM
05/12/11 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Devon
Mixed cat sailing in the olympics has just lost me, i no longer care to follow mixed cats and have no interest in a olympic event where the female is the skipper and gets all the recognotion in the elite of the sport, its not about being chauvonistic either..


Ahh get over it boys, the next multihull in the olympics, for what ever reasons, is going to be a mixed crew.

You seem quite happy to allow boards and kites in womens events and they are physically probably as tough to compete in as multihulls and yet have few active participants in comparison to the active male numbers.

I just don't get the whinging, lets build on what we are goner get and see where it goes.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232248
05/12/11 05:37 AM
05/12/11 05:37 AM
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Devon Offline
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Boards and kites are 1 up not 2 up, you can not use that example in comparism, if the girls want to go up against the guys in kites and boards thats fine may the best sailer win, and i would be happy to watch mixed 1 up /open kites and boards events, sorry i find it hard to get over what the ISAF did to the T and are now repeating the same lucid process, this is not a whinge it is merely pointing out yet again how the ISAF have got it terribly wrong and continue to regress an amazing part of sailing in multihulls, the viewer numbers will be what decides the future multihull events and where it goes, I for one wont be amongst those viewers, but i can think of some great names for their cats .. Mums Taxi / girl power / cat woman

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232249
05/12/11 05:49 AM
05/12/11 05:49 AM
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pgp Offline
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Do men really have an advantage in sailing? Sailors already use a variety of mechanical assists i.e. main sheet blocks so it isn't as though it's truly "man against the sea". Come to think of it only body surfers and swimmers can make that claim.

Looking at female gymnasts and swimmers, in fact the whole gammit of top level female athletes, it seems to me they could compete equally.

Imo, "mixed" is not an issue. As always, talent and preparation will win. But "mixed" could make sailing the first sport to overcome gender bias. Maybe we should promote it that way?


Last edited by pgp; 05/12/11 05:53 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: pgp] #232250
05/12/11 06:07 AM
05/12/11 06:07 AM
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Posts: 1,021
Australia
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There is no way Women can compete in an equal manner to men, there are occasional exceptions but even at Olympic skill level there is simply no way Women are equal to men.

My Girlfriend is an Olympic medalist and currently on the match racing team for London, she also sails F18 and sometimes the 20's and she is the first one to say that there is a disparity in strengths between men and women. And in top level the power to weight ratio is a big factor in performance potential.

Be that as it may, we have this discipline now and we must make the most of it. So lets focus on the right stuff and make sure we have a good show for 2016!!!

Get out there and sail your catamaran and make people of both sexes see that we have a cool show.


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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232251
05/12/11 06:09 AM
05/12/11 06:09 AM
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Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Well said Andrew!


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232253
05/12/11 06:15 AM
05/12/11 06:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Originally Posted by Devon
Mixed cat sailing in the olympics has just lost me, i no longer care to follow mixed cats and have no interest in a olympic event where the female is the skipper and gets all the recognotion in the elite of the sport, its not about being chauvonistic either..


Ahh get over it boys, the next multihull in the olympics, for what ever reasons, is going to be a mixed crew.

You seem quite happy to allow boards and kites in womens events and they are physically probably as tough to compete in as multihulls and yet have few active participants in comparison to the active male numbers.

I just don't get the whinging, lets build on what we are goner get and see where it goes.


Having a mixed Olympic multihull class will probably bring more women into our normal sailing ranks (kinda like boards...I don't see much women supporting board sailing unless it was an Olympic class). Certainly, you guys don't find fault in that?


Jake Kohl
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232255
05/12/11 06:35 AM
05/12/11 06:35 AM
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pgp Offline
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Originally Posted by macca
There is no way Women can compete in an equal manner to men, there are occasional exceptions but even at Olympic skill level there is simply no way Women are equal to men.

My Girlfriend is an Olympic medalist and currently on the match racing team for London, she also sails F18 and sometimes the 20's and she is the first one to say that there is a disparity in strengths between men and women. And in top level the power to weight ratio is a big factor in performance potential.

Be that as it may, we have this discipline now and we must make the most of it. So lets focus on the right stuff and make sure we have a good show for 2016!!!

Get out there and sail your catamaran and make people of both sexes see that we have a cool show.


Tell that to some of the swimmers and gymnists! Taking note of your quote: "disparity in strengths", even your girlfriend doesn't say "men are superior and women can't compete".

Imo, this and the AC are the best things to happen to cats in a long time.

FYI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_weightlifting Girl's records are down around the middle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurcan_Taylan Somebody needs to teach this girl how to sail!

Attached Files
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Last edited by pgp; 05/12/11 06:53 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: pgp] #232256
05/12/11 07:03 AM
05/12/11 07:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
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Err, my girlfriend is against the mixed discipline.. But as I said, its what we have so lets get on with it.



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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232257
05/12/11 07:17 AM
05/12/11 07:17 AM
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waynemarlow Offline
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Originally Posted by macca
Err, my girlfriend is against the mixed discipline.. But as I said, its what we have so lets get on with it.



Its " horses for courses " pick the right boat and the girls will be able to compete on equal terms, blending strength and power ( boys )with finese and guile ( girls ) is a cool move and for all the male TV "switch off" by the male diehards, I'm sure there will be more women "switch on" viewers.

Anyway I want to see a lot more fit girls in the clubhouse, their presence I'm sure would also encourage more younger lads to be there, nothing like a bee to a honeypot.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waynemarlow] #232258
05/12/11 08:04 AM
05/12/11 08:04 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
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France
I think that what the sport need is the development of trapeze harness in some kind of transparent material. Couple that with mandatory bikinis for the girls on board and we may have some chance to steal some audience from beach volley.

smile

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232259
05/12/11 08:15 AM
05/12/11 08:15 AM
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Posts: 297
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rexdenton Offline
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Mischa and Carrie seem to do quite well-even in distance stuff, and as an example, I just don't comprehend any argument whereby superior male strength will be overwhelming factor in routine can racing in catamarans...I'd say strength to weight is way more important, and in that sense, those smaller women can be an advantage. Not trying to start a war here, but I don't feel sailing ability is influenced overwhelmingly by testosterone...

Last edited by rexdenton; 05/12/11 08:35 AM.

Nacra F18 #856
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: rexdenton] #232276
05/12/11 10:52 AM
05/12/11 10:52 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
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Agreed, when coaching youths, I often told boys to sail a bit more like girls and girls to sail a bit more like boys. After a bit of ridicule, they understood what I was driving at and were able to adapt their style a bit.



Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: TEAMVMG] #232282
05/12/11 11:13 AM
05/12/11 11:13 AM
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brucat Offline
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Devon, going for post of the year there? Worried about women taking too much credit for skippering? Wow...

If Olympic sailing were all about testosterone, we wouldn't see anyone older than (30?) ever being competitive, in ANY class.

Let's move on, this discussion about mixed is well past done.

Mike

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: brucat] #232283
05/12/11 11:23 AM
05/12/11 11:23 AM
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rexdenton Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat

If Olympic sailing were all about testosterone, we wouldn't see anyone older than (30?) ever being competitive, in ANY class.

I resemble that remark... grin


Nacra F18 #856
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: rexdenton] #232288
05/12/11 12:05 PM
05/12/11 12:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
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orphan Offline
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Daytona Beach Florida
The last Tornado worlds winner was a mixed crew. And SHE crew. There was also 1 other mixed crew in the top 10.
Great interview at.
http://www.tornado-class.org/news/a...h-nahid-gaebler-tornado-mixed-sailor.htm

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: orphan] #232290
05/12/11 12:27 PM
05/12/11 12:27 PM
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Posts: 52
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oxj Offline
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I don't think anyone has a problem with ALLOWING women to compete. But men being FORCED to team up with women is nonsense at the Olympic level.

Big difference between OPEN and MIXED.

Open is ideal if you don't have separate men's/women's events. There are some very good women sailors in the world. But they do not represent 50% of the top cat sailors.


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