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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: oxj] #232294
05/12/11 02:03 PM
05/12/11 02:03 PM
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I think I get it now... Part of the problem may be the mixed messages coming from IOC.

They say they want events that represent how the sport is played around the world. But, they want to force gender equity.

Personally, I have no clue what you guys are all in a tizzy about. At all the cat regattas I attend, there are tons of women racing. Of course, that's one of the best parts of Hobie sailing.

At the monohull events that I attend (serving as RC), they are TOTAL sausage-fests, and I'm not talking windward-leeward courses here. Outside of Youth events, you're lucky to see a handful of women all weekend.

Mike

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: brucat] #232301
05/12/11 03:02 PM
05/12/11 03:02 PM
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Naples, FL
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gotta go with Jake on this one. I think the angle is by having a mixed gender class, it would compel more women to either watch or participate. This is perhaps the largest untapped market segment in many if not all sports, both in talent and disposable income

And I recall several female notables that have challenged the status quo on a few male dominated sports like formula one racing and Singlehanded sailing which had heretofor been considered sports only males could handle...

What are we looking for in Olympic sailing? Athletic ability? brute strength? tactical genius? technological innovation? nice teeth?

If it was just one thing, then you'd only need one class/boat. Having a mixed crew might broaden appeal, blend several different disciplines together, and allow more overall participation

Not only that, but by having a mixed class, it is unlikely that a boat choice would upset formula/box or one-design classes for that very reason...


Jay

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: oxj] #232304
05/12/11 03:19 PM
05/12/11 03:19 PM
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Southampton UK
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Mixed is what we have to live with for the next few years so stop whinging, for those of us with Olympic aspirations it just means we've got to find a chick crew/helm.

For me that means a girl as i'm only 55kgs. In my eyes there are plenty of suitable female crews, 420/29er crews could all quite easily move over for people like me just coming out of youth sailing. The Girls are probably less physicaly strong but I think in a well sailed boat this makes little difference, the crew going to the Youth worlds for GBR have a female crew and she is as able as any of the male crews (she deffinatley beat me in a strenght test!)

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: rexdenton] #232317
05/12/11 04:36 PM
05/12/11 04:36 PM
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Australia
macca Offline
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Originally Posted by rexdenton
Mischa and Carrie seem to do quite well-even in distance stuff, and as an example, I just don't comprehend any argument whereby superior male strength will be overwhelming factor in routine can racing in catamarans...I'd say strength to weight is way more important, and in that sense, those smaller women can be an advantage. Not trying to start a war here, but I don't feel sailing ability is influenced overwhelmingly by testosterone...


Strength to weight is what its about, and men are always going to have a higher potential strength to weight ratio. Its not something I am making up, its just how it is!

Have a look at the 470 class, its a great example. Men and Women teams have the same weight and in a clear majority of races against each other the men will win. Its not because the men are better at tactics or boat speed, there is nothing at all stopping a womens team doing that just as well as the men. Fact is that even though the 470 is a shitty little boat it is still a physical one for the crew and the men crews have an advantage. The men can pump the rig harder and longer, they can roll tack the boat with more energy, more times. They can hoist the kite faster and trim it with more force, pump on waves harder and more often. All these things you will see in a mixed multihull.

Sure you will still have women crewing, but its not going to be the norm nor the most effective. I have nothing against women crewing and in fact it would be great for me if my girl crewed (i am a **** crew!!) but its simply not the right way to go in this new discipline.


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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: NacraKid] #232413
05/14/11 05:20 AM
05/14/11 05:20 AM
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I'm rather surprised that there are people that see including a mixed team in the multihull as a bad thing.

It's just like any other rule. If you want to win you could change the sail plan or the hull shape of your boat. But you cant because there are rules that govern this. It is the sailor that has to earn the win. Making a rule that means each team has one of each of the sexes means neither team
has an advantage and they still have to earn the win.
50% of the potential multihull market is female yet if the people who say women can never compete against men at an elite level are right then without enforcing a mixed team we don't get females at the top of the sport acting as role models for girls who would like to see themselves in that role someday. That means you effectively alienate 50% of the potential multihull sailors.
It has always amazed me as to how male dominated this sport is. No wonder it is such a small sport. Give the women something at the top of the sport to aspire to and you will bring more of them into the sport and that will probably also bring in more guys. Nothing like a place to meet chicks to bring in fellas.

This is not a big sport. We can't afford to leave 50% of the potential market out in the cold. If we want the sport to grow then this is probably the best thing that could happen to it.

Last edited by phill; 05/14/11 05:23 AM.

I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado] #232418
05/14/11 09:42 AM
05/14/11 09:42 AM
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New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
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Originally Posted by Tornado

In actual fact, I don't believe the T was removed because not enough countries canpaigned it..we all know the gory details on how the voting went down...it was accepted once (twice?) before a backroom "deal" was made and 3rd vote took place to drop it. Yes, we can state the boat needs better acceptance globally...but let's not cloud the issue, that is not why it was dropped.

You're starting with a relatively small slice of sailors (multihullers), then further slicing that to spin boat teams willing to devote time/money to campaigning 200+ days per year x4-8 years. Costs of this were staggering...many non-Euro teams typically kept a second boat kept in Europe for the several key events there while still having one at home for training to avoid shipping and the inherent down time during transit. The reality is you cannot do this on shoestrings...being independantly wealthy or having generous sponsorship is essential.The same should also be true to other Olympic classes...but they start with much larger monhull numbers.
Both boats are essentially entry level, low purchase. Juniors can get into them at local clubs. Parents would consider buying for kids. Any multihull is at a disadvantage in comparison since build costs/storage/portability is higher/more difficult.


Mike,
This pretty well sets up what happened. There are a few falicies out there concerning the tornado.
1) It was removed because it was too expensive. It is an expensive boat, but the most expensive boat for 2012 is the Star with the Elliot coming in a close second. While Lasers are much less exspensive for a boat and a rig, to compete at an Olympic level requires many boats and many rigs to do a four year campaign.
2) It was removed because it was not a tightly controlled OD class. The only true OD class in the Olympics is the laser. The 470's and 49'rs are pretty tightly controlled classes but with more room for development than the Laser. I do not know about the Elliot, but believe that is/will be tightly controlled for the one cycle it competes in. Finns and Stars are very open in comparison with hull shape and rigs being in a constant state of flux. Melges, Lillia, Mader, Folli, P-Star in the Star class. Some Flatter with less rocker, some fuller with more rocker, some for light air campaign some for heavy air regattas. But it is the tornado that got the press.

It was politics and back room deals that killed the Tornado in the Olympics. Participation in the Tornado class dropped as the rules for and cost of campaigning increased. At one point you could campaign a Tornado in the US and maybe do an occassional overseas regatta such as the Worlds and still go to the Olympic trials. You had between 70-90 boats at the nationals and 60-80 boats at the trials. The last Olympic trials held in San Diego had five boats. Today you have do most of your campaign traveling around the world. The US has one Schedule 1 event a year and that is the Miami OCR. This change began sometime just before or just after the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta/Savannah. The worldwide ranking system comes in to play in geting an Olympic berth. I have heard that campaigning can run over $250,000 per year. This limits those who can play the game.

Last edited by windswept; 05/14/11 09:44 AM.

Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: phill] #232422
05/14/11 10:40 AM
05/14/11 10:40 AM
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rexdenton Offline
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Originally Posted by phill
I'm rather surprised that there are people that see including a mixed team in the multihull as a bad thing.

I don't get it either. The strength argument doesn't cut it for me-sure sailing can be tiring after a day, but apart from the abuse on hands the strength required doesn't even come close to competitive biking, triathlons, or swimming, (or frankly, my daily workout routine, and I'm an old fart).


Nacra F18 #856
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: rexdenton] #232424
05/14/11 11:36 AM
05/14/11 11:36 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Ever seen the hands of a female Olympic gymnast after a workout on the bars? Wow!

I've got three daughters (and 1 son) and I would love to be able to point at a mixed cat team in the Olympics and say, "See? You CAN do this!"

In fact, I pointed out a picture of Paul Elvstrom sailing his Tornado with his daughter many years ago, we need more, not less, mixed sailing.

If you have young daughters, take them to see the movie Soul Surfer. It is the true story about that 13yr. old girl who had one arm bitten off by a shark while out surfing, and she returned to sufing a month later, and then won the Nationals a year later. I saw it last night when my 15yr. old daughter dragged me to it. I didn't really want to see it going in, but she begged me. Turned out it was a pretty good movie. I'm glad I went. No more excuses for her though!


Blade F16
#777
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado] #232426
05/14/11 11:57 AM
05/14/11 11:57 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Quote
Yes, we can state the boat needs better acceptance globally

Mike
and this is the key point... Japan has 1000 470 sailors in their class.. We don't have a 1000 multhull racers in the USA. All of the political BS is water under the bridge and resolved by the T's one design changes. F18's and F16's will have their own issues. Going forward, we must be certain that there is acceptance of a boat world wide THIS IS THE ISSUE.

What are the factors?... What will it take? Will a stock Hobie 16 generate participation comparable to lasers? There I just said it.

Quote
being independantly wealthy or having generous sponsorship is essential.


Um... well that is a hell of a selling point for a multihull class. You can't seriously believe you can sell a world wide evaluation committee on any multihull that comes with that baggage.

You need to change the process somehow if the only way your country can compete is by independent wealth or sponsorship.

So unless you solve the problem.. we will be bumped again!

Quote
Both boats are essentially entry level, low purchase.


If cheap is the decisive factor.... well, we have cheap multihulls available. You may not like those options but there are lots of boats that can compete with the laser/board/470 on purchase price and historic popularity.

Quote
Any multihull is at a disadvantage in comparison

Your argument CANNOT BE... we are a small deserving niche of the sport! its just hard for us... we are just not loved but we deserve the slot and we have a fabulous expensive boat for you to buy. We will politic better then the other guys to stay Olympic We have been there... done that... got booted.

The Keel boats were just booted and they are a LARGE deserving niche with an expensive boat and lots of cash but not enough votes world wide.

I don't have a good argument either... Everything leads back to a low cost laser equivalent that happens to be a multihull.

If the IOC and ISAF say they want a fabulous high performance machine for mixed cat... World deal with it... Fabulous... otherwise... a Hobie 16 is as laser like as you get.. Multihull Snobby catsailors of the world... Deal with it.

If you think there is some room between the two alternatives then you must ask: What does the IOC want... what does ISAF believe the IOC wants. What do the little countries of ISAF want. How much wiggle room... lots of questions.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: windswept] #232427
05/14/11 12:07 PM
05/14/11 12:07 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Quote
It is an expensive boat, but the most expensive boat for 2012 is the Star with the Elliot coming in a close second.


Tom
And now all three boats are gone.... I wonder why?

This is not a vote of all powerful, all knowing, or a small set of political hacks.. The ISAF vote is about a lot of countries representing their own interest. When the cost of the boat crosses a threshold that they can't play at, they vote you out when they can! .... Ignore this lesson if you want... but the Elliot has never sailed in OLYMPIC battle and it's gone.

Quote
It was removed because it was not a tightly controlled OD class.


So why exactly did the Tornado Class scrub the rules and now markets the Tornado as a ONE DESIGN TORNADO.. No choices allowed. Was it for better sailing.... or for better politics?

My read of the world is that the new paradigm is Popular and Affordable now trump brilliant and expensive. Smoothing over the bumps of the past won't address this issue.

We have a sales job to do...
On the cat racers of the world who want a fabulous iconic Olympic Cat for the unique game of MiXED... while dreaming of the day when they have TWO fabulous olympic cats. WE are going to need to accept Popular and Affordable

We also have to sell the other MNA's that they can be competitive with a start up multihull program. (Hell... we need to convince the USA MNA that we can be competitive with a start up multihull program.)



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: rexdenton] #232431
05/14/11 03:42 PM
05/14/11 03:42 PM
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Australia
macca Offline
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Originally Posted by rexdenton
Originally Posted by phill
I'm rather surprised that there are people that see including a mixed team in the multihull as a bad thing.

I don't get it either. The strength argument doesn't cut it for me-sure sailing can be tiring after a day, but apart from the abuse on hands the strength required doesn't even come close to competitive biking, triathlons, or swimming, (or frankly, my daily workout routine, and I'm an old fart).


I think its ok to have the mixed discipline.

I want to make it clear that my arguments are around the roles of each crew member and how that relates to their strengths. The Men will for the much greater part be taking on the crewing role for the reasons I have outlined before. In this configuration (female skipper and male crew) the teams will be competitive with other teams in the same configuration.


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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232435
05/14/11 09:36 PM
05/14/11 09:36 PM

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I see the Tornados are wasting no time - they have announced the first Tornado Mixed Sailing World Championships in August and Mixed Europeans in September.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: phill] #232436
05/15/11 02:10 AM
05/15/11 02:10 AM
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West coast of Norway
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Originally Posted by phill

This is not a big sport. We can't afford to leave 50% of the potential market out in the cold. If we want the sport to grow then this is probably the best thing that could happen to it.


50% of the potential market is of the fair sex, but they do control 90% of the household budgets.

I see no threat in a mixed multi oly class. We can only gain.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232437
05/15/11 03:50 AM
05/15/11 03:50 AM
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

a Hobie 16 is as laser like as you get.. Multihull Snobby catsailors of the world... Deal with it.


Before we go overboard on this.

The H16 (le race version) was never more then 2500 Euro's cheaper then a race ready F16 in Europe over the last decade.

The H16 (or any other boats) may be cheaper then another more high tech design but that still doesn't mean that the price difference is anything to fuss over.

It may be quite negligiable indeed !

Other then that I think the H16 will simply never be chosen as the olympic boat as indeed the laser wouldn't be chosen in now if it hadn't been in the olympics. Part of the magic of the laser (and I do enjoy sailing it) is due to its long history and associated involvement in the big O. But in a direct comparison without this bias it would be passed by a newer design.

Other then that the Olympic hopefuls will never support the H16 in the big O. No-one is campaigning to use timber tennisrackets in the big O either. It is just that simple.

The core of the situation is to find a design that works for the Olympics (which almost certainly involves adopting a carbon mast and asym. spinnaker) and is still affordable enough to allow for wide participation. It is not the other way around where afforability is consideration number 1 and all other aspects come second. No olympic sport is structured in this latter way and neither will sailing. That is just not in the cards.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/15/11 04:00 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Wouter] #232445
05/15/11 11:02 AM
05/15/11 11:02 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Looks to me like the Tornado guys (and girls) are already on it.


Blade F16
#777
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232448
05/15/11 02:21 PM
05/15/11 02:21 PM
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uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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Round texel 2011 has a mixed class too

This is adding another line of interest to our sport


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Wouter] #232449
05/15/11 09:58 PM
05/15/11 09:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Wouter

I agree, No Olympic athlete would want less then a high performance boat. The last multihull trials... the top sailors loved the M20. They kept the Tornado.

BUT a strategic decision must be made by the Multihull leadership with an eye to the future. If more countries don't play... the multi will be out again.

Quote
The core of the situation is to find a design that works for the Olympics (which almost certainly involves adopting a carbon mast and asym. spinnaker) and is still affordable enough to allow for wide participation.


I agree the critical issue is world wide participation. Figuring out what the critical factors are to promote this outcome is key.

Cheap and popular is the obvious one but may simply negatively correlate with why countries don't get their sailors into high performance boats.

Personally, I think the key selling point is that the field is wide open... No established powers... indeed if the gals drive... just one country has a jump on the world.

Provide an equipment package that costs no more then the 29ner XX and you might grow the number of nations competing. Cross training programs could also leverage a small countries dollars.

Out of the box thinking is needed.... What is needed is to pick a boat and a GROWTH PROGRAM.

I assume that the Growth potential for elite world wide competition strongly supported by the rank and file will be a decisive factor.

Take your best shot... What program of incentives. (Manufacture provided boats??) World Wide Popularity and Growth potential, Hardware, Class regulation will hit the sweet spot.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232450
05/15/11 10:36 PM
05/15/11 10:36 PM

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MarkMT
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MarkMT
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M



Mark, how many nations do you estimate would put the issue beyond doubt, and what do you consider to be key nations not currently involved that you would want to go after as first priority?

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: ] #232454
05/16/11 05:44 AM
05/16/11 05:44 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
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uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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The selected boat needs to be close to F18.

Most countries do not have a massive cat scene and will use their sailor's results in F18 to select for their Olympic squad on the new boat.

Each country will only need 3 or 4 of these boats to run its squad with.

Last edited by TEAMVMG; 05/16/11 09:53 AM.

Paul

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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: TEAMVMG] #232460
05/16/11 09:24 AM
05/16/11 09:24 AM
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Northfield Mn
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The selected boat needs to be on par with the quality that the Marstrom Tornados were. The most expensive boat in beach cats is the least expensive to campaign.


I'm boatless.
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