Announcements
New Discussions
Tornado
by allthewayne. 09/06/20 03:08 PM
9:1 cascade for $100
by Tornado387. 08/30/20 03:46 AM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 8 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Karl_Brogger] #232462
05/16/11 10:00 AM
05/16/11 10:00 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Why? Make the argument!

Lots of the Olympic boats don't hold up for a campaign cycle.

The value over a 4 year cycle versus entry cost debate did not work for the Tornado for 20 years... What sea change makes you think this is important now?

If you are Costa Rica or Bermuda ...(pick a country in a growing part of the world) You have a small program... Who knows if your sailors are going to be able to compete... You need to build a pipeline to create a world class team... you can't count on rich family paying for their kid to pursue the Olympics. Trying to catch lighting in a bottle.... Would you not want lots of affordable boats to maximize your very small pyramid of sailors or a few Cadillac boats.


(I think the value in the boat is important but history seems to say that the value proposition is not determinative.


crac.sailregattas.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232464
05/16/11 11:12 AM
05/16/11 11:12 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
M
maritimesailor Offline
member
maritimesailor  Offline
member
M

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
At the end of the day lots of boats will go to the trials, one will win. Doesn't matter what the community thinks, it is the ISAF that will make that decision (I believe they are the ones the trials... could be wrong).

My guess, Viper if AHPC can show build quality (already proven), and more importantly, ability to ship to all Olympic countries (probably the hardest part, something Hobie would have an easier time showing).

The Laser is an interesting boat to look at not because of price, but how "not high performance" that boat is. The sail is crap, the rig is crap, the hull shape is awful (especially down wind), yet it is an Olympic boat... what lessons can we learn from this? I wasn't around when it was selected, but I think any Cat builder designing a boat to put forth at the trials should study why it was chosen. My thought is that it was a reliable boat that can be mass produced and shipped everywhere, while also being a challenging enough boat that a better sailor does actually win....

The trials are going to be interesting, I can't wait to see what different cat manufacturers are going to put up for it. Until then, all this talk is really just an academic exercise, as who knows what F18s will look like by then, Vipers, etc (okay, we know what a T will look like).

As for mixed, I'm all for it. Guarantees if 20 countries are in the multihull division there will be 20 girls, way more then any "open" class would have.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: maritimesailor] #232467
05/16/11 01:21 PM
05/16/11 01:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
Doesn't matter what the community thinks,


So... you will just swallow what ever the selection committee serves up? I doubt that...
You may be right about the arrogance of the ISAF selection committee but that would be a tragic.

This game is ALL about buy-in and enrollment for the ISAF selection process.... not just for multihull sailors in the rank and file f but also for the rest of the sailing world in order to support Mixed Multihull saling. No support by the monohull guys will get you isolated and dinged again. (We have tried life as the red headed step child.... 8 years in the wilderness is the result.)

If ISAF and the MNA's ignore the community... they won't get much support down the road. Just ask the US cat sailors if they believe that USSA Olympic supported Tornado mulithull sailing. How about the sailors support for the ISAF junior boat...the infamous SL16! Benign neglect is corrosive...Do we have a viable youth program? Do the US cat sailors support the Pan Am teams then and now? How about ISAF F18 Championships? Surf city correctly decried the balkanization of the US sailing scene.

The ISAF multihull selection committee needs to bring the WORLDS multihull sailors along with regard to the selection criteria and forge a consensus to support the new Olympic Class and use the Olympics to further the popularity of the whole discipline. If they screw it up with the AC on big cats... it will be a greek tragedy! Failure to do so will mean another orphaned Olympic Class. No additional countries will be driven to compete in Mixed Multihull. You won't find the volunteers to set up a training pipeline to encourage and support young sailors. Ultimately, you are set up to be bumped again.

Paul Pascoe gets it... Hopefully the rest of ISAF and the MNA's will as well.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232470
05/16/11 03:36 PM
05/16/11 03:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Why? Make the argument!


It's cheaper to buy one $40k boat every four years, than five, six or seven $20k boats in that same four year period. AHPC builds a very nice product, but they won't last like a carbon/nomex tornado will. Sailing 200+ days a year takes its toll quickly. I think Robbie said they were going through a mainsheet a week while training for Atlanta, just as an example.


I'm boatless.
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Karl_Brogger] #232482
05/16/11 09:16 PM
05/16/11 09:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
Pooh-Bah
catman  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
When you use like 2mm dyneema for most of it that's bound to happen.


Have Fun
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232491
05/17/11 04:09 AM
05/17/11 04:09 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Why? Make the argument!

Lots of the Olympic boats don't hold up for a campaign cycle.

The value over a 4 year cycle versus entry cost debate did not work for the Tornado for 20 years... What sea change makes you think this is important now?

If you are Costa Rica or Bermuda ...(pick a country in a growing part of the world) You have a small program... Who knows if your sailors are going to be able to compete... You need to build a pipeline to create a world class team... you can't count on rich family paying for their kid to pursue the Olympics. Trying to catch lighting in a bottle.... Would you not want lots of affordable boats to maximize your very small pyramid of sailors or a few Cadillac boats.


(I think the value in the boat is important but history seems to say that the value proposition is not determinative.
There is a second hand market for boats!!!!! A 10 year plus old Marstom will be all a team needs to get into the class however they will need to go to Europe to really see if they meet the standard. This costs $$$$$. So if any wanabee in “Costa Rica or Bermuda ...(pick a country in a growing part of the world)” wish to kick start a campaign, then buy a second hand boat. Start off with an old Reggie or Sailcraft, then progress to an older Marstrom, take it to Euroland and see where you stand. Alternatively, pick up an old F18, learn how to sail it. Get a newer generation boat, head to Euroland, see how you stack up, then get a Marstom and head over again.

Once again, the purchase price of the boat looks insignificant. And as mentioned, you can look at the second hand market for a boat.


Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #232493
05/17/11 04:34 AM
05/17/11 04:34 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
As Macca has pointed out, with mixed crew sailing, males will generally move to the front of the boat regardless of boat selected. The more I think about it, the more I believe the Tornado is still the boat for the Games.

The class has a strong committee behind it that understands what is required to be an Olympic class. (BS Politics removed it from the Games, not the boat itself)

It is geographically wide spread, more so than other suggested classes with the exception of the H16.

The rules have developed to reduce exploitation at an Olympic level. The code zero came about because ISAF f@#Ked with their class rules for the games throwing out the minimum wind limit for racing in China. Not something the class has had to worry about in the past. Mast issues were addressed with the introduction of the carbon mast, initially built by Marstom but was to be opened up to other manufactures after 4 years so Marstrom could recoupe the development costs it injected.

Non OD sails did drive sail development which may have been a little expensive; however it also increased the ideal crew weight range on the T. The development in cuts also filtered down to other classes as with operating systems i.e. the snuffer and retrieval systems.

Multi manufacture OD rules help produce a better product for less $$$$. Marstrom dominated hull production in the later years, however we were starting to see quality hulls being produced from people like Graham Eeles and Windrush just before the T was pulled from the Games. This competition in manufacturing may have shook the platform prices up a bit.

The big T is a visually spectacular boat to watch. It is HP and whilst it may not be the fastest shape, no other boat cuts a bow wave like the T in full flight.


Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #232495
05/17/11 05:43 AM
05/17/11 05:43 AM

M
MarkMT
Unregistered
MarkMT
Unregistered
M



As important as the choice of boat is (and I think Tornado_ALIVE's comments are well made) I hope just as much effort goes into advancing the technology for capturing on the water video and related content. Ultimately I think this will live and die by the quality of the TV coverage.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: ] #232504
05/17/11 10:52 AM
05/17/11 10:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
All of your points are absolutely valid... BUT.

Andy Rice sums up the ISAF democratic vote... (ie their self interest vote) as such

Quote
The keelboat ticks few – if any – of the boxes laid down in the IOC criteria. It’s expensive and inaccessible to any but the 20 wealthiest nations in the world. The skiff ticks at least a few boxes. It’s accessible and it’s what the kids aspire to go racing in. This is the conclusion that has led the Events Committee to reach the majority decision that it reached today, and indeed four years ago. The skiff is seen as part of the future, the keelboat as part of the elitist past.


1) Notice... not a mention of the mixed multihull!

2) The Tornado is historically expensive and inaccessible and NOT popular with the young sailors.. (It is part of an elitist past... sadly) The F18... has the same geographic appeal and is equally inaccessible to the ISAF rank and file. How do you change perceptions in these ISAF Countries?

3) You have to market to the large number of ISAF countries that vote out expensive inaccessible toys.

4) How do you get the kids juiced up about racing Cats forcing their countries to get behind and support multi's in the Olympics.. The Tornado and F18's are not doing it now.

I don't think you have come close to a persuasive argument to the ISAF rank and file yet!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232505
05/17/11 10:57 AM
05/17/11 10:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by Timbo
I've got three daughters (and 1 son) and I would love to be able to point at a mixed cat team in the Olympics and say, "See? You CAN do this!"


Is there an app for that? wink


Jay

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #232507
05/17/11 11:18 AM
05/17/11 11:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
okay, fine. Develop an OD 17x8.5 footer with a composite stick (for reproduceability), three sails (high aspect main, jib, asym), and high-tech foils.

Hull construction materials can include limited amount of higher-tech/cost material to increase durability primarily.

Hull volume is increased to allow for heavier teams. Team minimum weight requirement with limited corrector weight allowed

"Big O" licenses the molds (revenue for them)layup schedules, foils, and sailplan to builders in various regions. This will be set for each olympic cycle.

Boat is laid out like an F18, so teams can transition easily between the two.

Race course will be W/L (gate) with 5knot minimum and 25knot (sustained) max

Olympic games use builder supplied boats (2 from each builder) and teams rotate boats.


Jay

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #232511
05/17/11 11:33 AM
05/17/11 11:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Now were talking! I like it!

I would also change the qualification process. As Tornado Alive noted... you have to get to Europe... and that is real money.

Finding a way to make that less of a requirement would help the poorer countries make a go of it. The ISAF circuit makes it very very hard to expand the pool. We need some structural changes in the ISAF game to lower the costs... These are the cost that really drives Olympic sailing to the elitist stage.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232513
05/17/11 11:38 AM
05/17/11 11:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
would piggy-backing on the Pan Am Games (props to Dub on your competing there!) allow for a reduction in expenses for those hopefuls on this side of the pond?


Jay

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #232518
05/17/11 11:55 AM
05/17/11 11:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
would piggy-backing on the Pan Am Games (props to Dub on your competing there!) allow for a reduction in expenses for those hopefuls on this side of the pond?


Props to Mr. Thomas as well, skippers need love too. Now back to scheduled programming.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #232525
05/17/11 01:52 PM
05/17/11 01:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
addict
Kris Hathaway  Offline
addict

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
okay, fine. Develop an OD 17x8.5 footer with a composite stick (for reproduceability), three sails (high aspect main, jib, asym), and high-tech foils.

Hull construction materials can include limited amount of higher-tech/cost material to increase durability primarily.

Hull volume is increased to allow for heavier teams. Team minimum weight requirement with limited corrector weight allowed

"Big O" licenses the molds (revenue for them)layup schedules, foils, and sailplan to builders in various regions. This will be set for each olympic cycle.

Boat is laid out like an F18, so teams can transition easily between the two.

Race course will be W/L (gate) with 5knot minimum and 25knot (sustained) max

Olympic games use builder supplied boats (2 from each builder) and teams rotate boats.

Sounds like a class that already exists...maybe a foot shorter. wink


Kris Hathaway
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Kris Hathaway] #232527
05/17/11 02:23 PM
05/17/11 02:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Right, but it would allay the fears that an Olympic 18 footer would "destroy" the F18 fleet...


Jay

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #232529
05/17/11 02:36 PM
05/17/11 02:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
addict
Kris Hathaway  Offline
addict

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
No worries. I was alluding to F16. It is surprissing how well the newer hulls carry 2-up weight. Once you mentioned a min crew weight to dispell fears of anerexic males or little people, it should fit the requirements.

Last edited by Kris Hathaway; 05/17/11 02:36 PM.

Kris Hathaway
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Kris Hathaway] #232539
05/17/11 05:58 PM
05/17/11 05:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
I think that an 18ft (possibly F18 even) will not have so much of a negative effect on the F18 class as a whole. The F18 class is big enough now to exist with one of the designs being Olympic.

If they chose and F16 on the other hand.... that would spell the end for the class as it is right now. That would be a shame, as I said many times I believe the F16 class has the potential to be a big international class.


________________________
http://aus300.blogspot.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: macca] #232556
05/18/11 07:25 AM
05/18/11 07:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
I still don't see why we're discussing ONE Olympic catamaran.

It seems to me sailing is as different from the other disciplines as Winter is from Summer. As such, sailing deserves its own set of games, imo.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: pgp] #232557
05/18/11 07:31 AM
05/18/11 07:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
veteran
Jalani  Offline
veteran

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Totally agree with you Pete and that is why there was some considerable discussion when the IMC mooted a World Games regatta to make up for the loss of the T from the Olympics and there was huge support.
Perhaps if the multi hadn't have got back in, that support would have made it a reality? On that note, why can't the IMC try and get it anyway?


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Page 8 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 27 guests, and 257 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
AdventureCat, Curro5150, Jamiestealth, Ed_Vargas, DavidPB
8065 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,382
Posts267,004
Members8,065
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1