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F16 and Curved Boards #232499
05/17/11 08:15 AM
05/17/11 08:15 AM
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Mappy Offline OP
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Taking a bit of interest in the F16 class with the struggles of getting good crew. I see the F16 class rules do not allow curved boards. With the lighter weight, shorter length of this class potentially the curved boards could improve the performance and handling of the F16. Is there any chance this rule could be changed in the future?

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Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: Mappy] #232501
05/17/11 08:59 AM
05/17/11 08:59 AM
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Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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Yes. F16 is a semi-development class but not a strict box rule. Consequently, our rules are tighter to limit an arms race and the potential for immediate obsolescence of the existing fleet, similar to the principals behind the class that you currently sail in. The F16 class has a standing 5 year rules review schedule and the ability to amend outside of the cycle if certain conditions exist. Next scheduled review is 2012. There are two nice opportunities listed on CatSailor, Viper in MD and Falcon in FL. There is also a New England AHPC dealer that can help expedited the process and the Falcon dealer has an affordable service to run boats up the East Coast on a routine basis.

One of the distinguishing features about the F16 class is its flexibility relative to crew. Eric Witte (NE AHPC) is also working hard to expand the F16 presence in New England. If successful, I see a lot of competition shared between the Chesapeake Bay and NE fleets. BTW, the majority of the Chesapeake Bay boats race 1-up most of the time.


Good Luck!!


Kris Hathaway
Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: Mappy] #232502
05/17/11 09:10 AM
05/17/11 09:10 AM
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MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
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Originally Posted by Mappy
Taking a bit of interest in the F16 class with the struggles of getting good crew. I see the F16 class rules do not allow curved boards. With the lighter weight, shorter length of this class potentially the curved boards could improve the performance and handling of the F16. Is there any chance this rule could be changed in the future?


I suppose anything is possible, but it is not very likely, especially in the near future.

I see you have been reading the internet hype on curved foils. As a true performance enhancer there is still considerable debate. Even with the hard core believers the supposed advantages are heavily dependent on the conditions.

One thing for certain, curved foils require a higher level of sailing skill to make them work to any advantage as balance and hull trim are not just important but critical. When not run properly they are a definite disadvantage. The negative effects of not running them properly are magnified given shorter hull lengths.

Adding curved foils would add further separation between the skilled and the not skilled drivers and make the boat more difficult to run to its potential. Not something I feel is of any advantage to the boat or the class.

Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: Matt M] #232531
05/17/11 03:01 PM
05/17/11 03:01 PM
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Pensacola, FL
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Junior Offline
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I concur with Matt's comments. If you want the boat to lift given current rules, maximizing the 6 degree cant inboard will help...
V/r,


Bert Rice Jr
Viper USA-3
Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: Junior] #232538
05/17/11 05:58 PM
05/17/11 05:58 PM
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Michigan
PTP Offline
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I want curved foils and curved rudders with an adjustable t foil on all the foils. then I want a wing sail with a true kite (ala kite sailing). In addition, I want tubes in the bows that eject little nanobots that attack Interlux Perfection paint (inside joke). Maybe some stern tubes that send out carpet fibers to attach to the hulls of any boat that might be behind me.Then our class will be great

Last edited by PTP; 05/17/11 05:59 PM.
Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: PTP] #232544
05/17/11 08:21 PM
05/17/11 08:21 PM
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Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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I like PTP's style.


I'm boatless.
Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: Mappy] #232549
05/18/11 01:05 AM
05/18/11 01:05 AM
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Buy a moth if you want to have your boat fly. The cost of doing these curved foils on a cat is expensive and requires a lot more tooling. Takes the class away from the home-builder aspect. Curved foils have to lift 110kg plus 140kg crew weight (just putting in a number for the sake of a number). That is a lot more load on a foil and moves the class from amateur to professional builders only. For example, a moth hull costs 5k but the foils cost 6k+ and it only has to lift 30kg plus 75kg.

Originally Posted by Mappy
Taking a bit of interest in the F16 class with the struggles of getting good crew. I see the F16 class rules do not allow curved boards. With the lighter weight, shorter length of this class potentially the curved boards could improve the performance and handling of the F16. Is there any chance this rule could be changed in the future?



Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: taipanfc] #232622
05/19/11 11:02 AM
05/19/11 11:02 AM
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Western Australia
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agreed

Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: taipanfc] #232624
05/19/11 11:49 AM
05/19/11 11:49 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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indeed.


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: Wouter] #232770
05/24/11 06:35 PM
05/24/11 06:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
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Curved fouls would need us to increase beam to keep similar righting moments.

I cannot see a vote going thru in 2012 for curved fouls....


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: scooby_simon] #232778
05/25/11 04:15 AM
05/25/11 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by scooby_simon
Curved fouls would need us to increase beam to keep similar righting moments.

I cannot see a vote going thru in 2012 for curved fouls....


Scooby you are either being disingenuous or you are missing the whole point of curved boards, curved boards give a lifting vector which reduces water line length which in turn reduces " stiction " of the hulls which in turn means faster speeds which in turn means less righting moment needed, well that is the theory.

Downside is the boat needs much more tuning and understanding of what is going on by the skipper and much more careful positioning of the crew to get those faster speeds. In the right hands they are good, in us mere mortals as much as I would condone them, they are probably not as fast due to the complexity.

But to have a " sexy " image to the boat buyers and "tinkerers" amongst us, we are going to have to allow them if we want to purport to being a semi development class, they are here and here to stay I'm afraid.

Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: waynemarlow] #232880
05/27/11 11:48 AM
05/27/11 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Originally Posted by scooby_simon
Curved fouls would need us to increase beam to keep similar righting moments.

I cannot see a vote going thru in 2012 for curved fouls....


Scooby you are either being disingenuous or you are missing the whole point of curved boards, curved boards give a lifting vector which reduces water line length which in turn reduces " stiction " of the hulls which in turn means faster speeds which in turn means less righting moment needed, well that is the theory.

Downside is the boat needs much more tuning and understanding of what is going on by the skipper and much more careful positioning of the crew to get those faster speeds. In the right hands they are good, in us mere mortals as much as I would condone them, they are probably not as fast due to the complexity.

But to have a " sexy " image to the boat buyers and "tinkerers" amongst us, we are going to have to allow them if we want to purport to being a semi development class, they are here and here to stay I'm afraid.


Not being disingenuous at all;

With a plate that is vertical (in plane) of the hull; the leeward hull (roughly) pivots around a point at the bottom of the hull.

The boat will now be heeling / moving about a point down the plate (not at the leeward hull); as the hull is lifting; thus the pivot point moves inboard a foot or so (depending on the plate profile) and thus a wider boat is required for the same sail plan.

Spent a while discussing with Tornado_Alive as I was wondering why the F20 was so wide; itís because the curved boards reduce the effective beam of the boat.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: scooby_simon] #232902
05/28/11 04:23 AM
05/28/11 04:23 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
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Brisvegas
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Originally Posted by scooby_simon
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Originally Posted by scooby_simon
Curved fouls would need us to increase beam to keep similar righting moments.

I cannot see a vote going thru in 2012 for curved fouls....


Scooby you are either being disingenuous or you are missing the whole point of curved boards, curved boards give a lifting vector which reduces water line length which in turn reduces " stiction " of the hulls which in turn means faster speeds which in turn means less righting moment needed, well that is the theory.

Downside is the boat needs much more tuning and understanding of what is going on by the skipper and much more careful positioning of the crew to get those faster speeds. In the right hands they are good, in us mere mortals as much as I would condone them, they are probably not as fast due to the complexity.

But to have a " sexy " image to the boat buyers and "tinkerers" amongst us, we are going to have to allow them if we want to purport to being a semi development class, they are here and here to stay I'm afraid.


Not being disingenuous at all;

With a plate that is vertical (in plane) of the hull; the leeward hull (roughly) pivots around a point at the bottom of the hull.

The boat will now be heeling / moving about a point down the plate (not at the leeward hull); as the hull is lifting; thus the pivot point moves inboard a foot or so (depending on the plate profile) and thus a wider boat is required for the same sail plan.

Spent a while discussing with Tornado_Alive as I was wondering why the F20 was so wide; it’s because the curved boards reduce the effective beam of the boat.


The earlier heeling with a curved board is an advantage as the hull can be popped in lighter breeze and get going with one or two on the wire earlier. Lifting the cuved board abit as the breeze gets up then reverts the heeling moment to the standard straight board amount. Best of both worlds. That's what is happenning with the A's anyway.

Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: scooby_simon] #232903
05/28/11 06:04 AM
05/28/11 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by scooby_simon

With a plate that is vertical (in plane) of the hull; the leeward hull (roughly) pivots around a point at the bottom of the hull.

The boat will now be heeling / moving about a point down the plate (not at the leeward hull); as the hull is lifting; thus the pivot point moves inboard a foot or so (depending on the plate profile) and thus a wider boat is required for the same sail plan.

Spent a while discussing with Tornado_Alive as I was wondering why the F20 was so wide; itís because the curved boards reduce the effective beam of the boat.


Totally agree with what you are saying about normal vertical boards but with curved boards its a lot more complex. As soon as the boat starts moving through the water, and thats what we try to do ( some more successfully than others ) all sorts of other " vectors " start happening.

Its very new technology with a long long way to go before we fully understand the benefits and repercussions of various assymetrical or symmetrical curved boards but we need to be thinking ahead a little perhaps and think along the lines of at least fitting the newer styles of adjustable daggerboard cases where we can fit curved or straight boards.

See you at the 3 Piers for a beer to discuss.

Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: waynemarlow] #232907
05/28/11 10:58 AM
05/28/11 10:58 AM
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Northfield Mn
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As scared as sailors are of new technology it blows me away we have spinnakers, and more so that we aren't launching them from a bag on the tramp.

I'm all for it. The earlier it is voted in the better. Nobody will build one for quite a while I'd bet anyway. AHPC won't be doing it anytime soon, Falcon Marine won't be doing it anytime soon, etc. Maybe NACRA?

3000 years of sailing and we're still pushing the ball forward, how cool is that?


I'm boatless.
Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: Karl_Brogger] #232927
05/29/11 04:25 PM
05/29/11 04:25 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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I agree that they should be allowed, even if they are more difficult to extract performance from (aka, rewards those that spend the most time on the water). The cost of retrofitting them to existing boats is an issue but best I can tell curved foils only cost slightly more than the newest high aspect ratio boards in the F18 class. This makes sense since the proper tooling costs are very similar and the only change is in the amount of material needed in the curved foil (more) so the price reflects the material difference and possibly the slight increase in labor needed. I don't see why this would be any different in the F16 class. If there are concerns over performance, stick with trunks like those used on the Bimare V1R that can accept curved and straight boards.


Scorpion F18
Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: samc99us] #232947
05/30/11 01:48 AM
05/30/11 01:48 AM
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Australia
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tooling cost for curved boards are considerably higher than for straight ones.


And you can debate the pro's and Cons for ever, but the only ones I see arguing that the curved boards are not a definite performance gain are those that have not even sailed a relative boat with curved boards... I suggest you all go and try them before passing judgement on the performance gains and the ease of use.


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Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: macca] #232948
05/30/11 02:30 AM
05/30/11 02:30 AM
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Netherlands
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Netherlands
Originally Posted by macca
tooling cost for curved boards are considerably higher than for straight ones.


And you can debate the pro's and Cons for ever, but the only ones I see arguing that the curved boards are not a definite performance gain are those that have not even sailed a relative boat with curved boards... I suggest you all go and try them before passing judgement on the performance gains and the ease of use.


I did stop reading this forum for a long time but i was called to have a look at the curved board section so i did read it.I am not always agreeing with Andrew but he is right on this one. The curved boards are another dimension and very difficult to get the maximum out of them. Besides the costs of production , it is very difficult sailing them in a good way, it needs a lot of practice to get the benefit of it otherwise it is always loosing. I have found out already unfortantly.

Hans

Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: macca] #232950
05/30/11 05:31 AM
05/30/11 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by macca
tooling cost for curved boards are considerably higher than for straight ones.


And you can debate the pro's and Cons for ever, but the only ones I see arguing that the curved boards are not a definite performance gain are those that have not even sailed a relative boat with curved boards... I suggest you all go and try them before passing judgement on the performance gains and the ease of use.


Macca, Hans I think is agreeing that you think curved boards are more difficult to sail consistantly well and I'm not sure that is what you are intimating, would you like to clarify a little.

I would suspect also that you are more familiar with the heavier and wider format of the F20 which will be easier to get the best from than the lighter F16's would be. How much time have you spent on an A with curved boards, which would be the closest to our class ?

Honest world wide experiance question which you probably are far more able to answer here as I have yet to sail on a boat with curved boards ( mine are canted at the class 6 degrees ), would you vote to adopt curved boards for the F16 class and the reasons why please.

Tooling costs are almost irrelavent, spread over the lifetime of the moulds of say 300 boats, then it is a few dollars more per boat.

Last edited by waynemarlow; 05/30/11 05:41 AM.
Re: F16 and Curved Boards [Re: macca] #232954
05/30/11 07:17 AM
05/30/11 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by macca
tooling cost for curved boards are considerably higher than for straight ones.


And you can debate the pro's and Cons for ever, but the only ones I see arguing that the curved boards are not a definite performance gain are those that have not even sailed a relative boat with curved boards... I suggest you all go and try them before passing judgement on the performance gains and the ease of use.


I'm with you on both points; I see them as an advantage.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
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