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question on capsizing #23281
08/15/03 09:56 AM
08/15/03 09:56 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 241
Largo, Florida
papayamon2 Offline OP
enthusiast
papayamon2  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 241
Largo, Florida
OK, one more question re: Hobie cats w/ family members on board. I've only flipped a catamaran once, and that was years ago. (It's not that I'm that good--I simply haven't owned one for awhile!) I was with another guy and we both tumbled from the upward hull. I think he went over the back end, and I have a distinct memory of meeting the boom on the way into the water as I tried to fall between the tramp and the boom. Now my question: Is this the norm? That is, are Hobie flips by nature wild, uncontrolled moments? (What becomes of the crew?) Do you typically go from 20 to 0 in an unexpected instant, or does an experienced cat sailor see the capsize coming and have a controlled, measured plan of how to get into the water? (The Hobie manuals don't seem to cover the details on this one--they just talk about what to do when you're in the water. But how did you get there??) Or does an experienced cat sailor simply avoid capsizing by sheeting out, etc.?

Anyway, forgive my ignorance but this is part of my decision making process in obtaining a Hobie for my family. We've always felt very safe in a monohull, but I'd really like to upgrade the thrills a little--without killing my kids in the process! (I'm supposed to see a guy about an 18' tomorrow...)

Thanks!

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: question on capsizing [Re: papayamon2] #23282
08/15/03 02:01 PM
08/15/03 02:01 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 50
Roanoke, VA
mattp Offline
journeyman
mattp  Offline
journeyman

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 50
Roanoke, VA
The only time I have capsized in the short time that I have been sailing cats was a pitchpole (flipped forward). I think I hit one of the bridle wires on my trajectory because I had 2 sprained fingers. And yes, this did seem like 20 to 0 in an unexpected (and quite dramatic) instant. But like I said I've only been sailing for a short while and had I been more experienced, I may have seen warning signs. On the other hand, I've heard that more experience leads to pushing the boat harder which leads to more capsizes! I guess you just get better at crashing without injury.


(Insert Witty Signature Here) 1988 H16
Re: question on capsizing [Re: papayamon2] #23283
08/15/03 06:01 PM
08/15/03 06:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 53
Jackson, MI
TheSkier Offline
journeyman
TheSkier  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 53
Jackson, MI
Depending on how you flip will determine if you go from 20 to 0 or just slow down and flip over. I have done both. usually a pitch pole is a 20 - 0 real quick with someone going around the shroud on the trapeeze. I have done this 3 times this year alone.

I have also flipped it buy getting it up to high and have it go over. When I have had this happen, I normally just slide into the water inbetween the boom and the tramp.

The Skier
1973 H16

Re: question on capsizing [Re: TheSkier] #23284
08/15/03 07:34 PM
08/15/03 07:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 591
Bradenton, FL
Sycho15 Offline
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Sycho15  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 591
Bradenton, FL
If you're in a capsizing-prone position, you should be at the very least hiked out. In this position you'll end up sitting on top of the windward rail.

If you're pushing the boat that hard you should be trapezing anyhow. In this case you'll be trying everything you can to keep the boat from capsizing, but when the moment arrives, do a little 180 degree hop and grab ahold of the rail. Hang from it for a second before dropping into the water. If that's a little to gymnastic for you, just try to bend over and grab the rail as you fall.
Capsizes generally occur slowly enough to give lots of reaction time.

Pitchpoles don't.
You're only hope here is that you're sitting on the boat when it occurs and can grab ahold of something to keep yourself in place. If you can keep your weight on the back corner of the boat, there is a fair chance that it can swing into the wind and settle back onto both hulls. I've seen it done all of twice, everyone else just got catapulted.


G-Cat 5.7M #583 (sail # currently 100) in Bradenton, FL Hobie 14T
Re: question on capsizing [Re: papayamon2] #23285
08/16/03 02:04 AM
08/16/03 02:04 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 33
Missouri
banannahead Offline
newbie
banannahead  Offline
newbie

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 33
Missouri
If you are sailing in heavy winds keep your sails uncleated!, that way if your leeward bow begins to bury all you have to do is sheet out, and be sure to wear a life jacket, and sailing gloves. It is also a good idea to have a bob or some type of float on the top of your mast.
A couple of years ago we were in 18 MPH winds on my h16 with three of us aboard, we buried a hull but we just stopped and did not pitchpole, total weight of the crew was about 480 pounds, we were all the way aft except for my wife. Another time my wife and I were sailing in 20 mph winds, and while flying a hull I came up into the wind too much and wham, pitchpole!, ( my attention was on some girls on the shore and not on the helm), the jib back winded and I went flying and my wife fell into the jib. Neither the boat or us were damaged, but I had waxed the hulls so it took about 20 minutes, (seemed like an hour!), to get the boat back up because we kept sliding off! When we came in a guy at the dock told us he had some great pictures of our pitchpole, but I never had the chance to see them. Afterwards we celebrated our pitchpole with a beer at the Orleans Trail Restraunt at Stockton Lake in Missouri, it is a great sailing lake.
I have never sailed on a TheMightyHobie18 like you said you were going to look at , but I've sailed on a Hobie Miracle 20 and it was very stable, but all the lines and barber hauler running all over the tramp were a pain compared to the setup on an H16. I have also found that a furling jib, (at least on an H16), makes it easier to depower if the wind comes up suddenly.
It is also a good idea to practice righting the boat on a calm day. Once your hobie does decide you need to go for a swim you won't worry about it as much after that. A good book to read is Catamaran Sailing From Start To Finish by Phil Berman, it also has a lot of tips on buying a cat. I hope all of this helped and I did not ramble too much, good luck on finding a cat.

Banannahead.

Re: question on capsizing [Re: papayamon2] #23286
08/16/03 10:09 AM
08/16/03 10:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 97
Bogie Offline
journeyman
Bogie  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 97
Maybe you should get out with another guy until you've got these things figured out. You outta at least have enough experience to know how the capsize is most likely to occur, so you'll have a plan ready. Even though you should be ready for it, you shouldn't capsize with the kids on board. It also might be a good idea to just get out in mild winds while you're carrying passengers.

Also some of the more recent Hobie designs are more family oriented boats which have higher flotation hulls, and might be better suited to your purpose.

Re: question on capsizing [Re: papayamon2] #23287
08/17/03 07:15 AM
08/17/03 07:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 170
Australia
Jules_topcat Offline
member
Jules_topcat  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 170
Australia
Hey well i haven't read what the others have said only because i really dont have time, sorry boys. Well to be honest a good sailor doesn't go over very offen because they dont think about going over. Well In terms off where to land, i think anywhere close to the boat is good because its a race so you need the boat up ASAP. I know when i sail my boat i normally have a contoled capsize and well i can do a dry capsize but when the winds are wild im really landing in the sail. Dont worry about hitting the sail its probs the strongest part of your boat anyways(only if you have a new boat).

Nose dive. In a nose dive well all i have to say is try and stay away from the boat.

caping sideways. If you have to go make sure your close to the boat and get it up asap. Dont try and land in a possition where your going to have to take your time like doing a dry capsize. When i do one i normally jump off anyways just to speed things up.

If your thinking of boats to get i would seriously think about can you contol something faster and if you can do you really need to!!

Well sail fast and have fun.

From Julian


Jules_topcat
Re: question on capsizing [Re: papayamon2] #23288
08/18/03 08:53 AM
08/18/03 08:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 206
Virginia USA
CMerrell Offline
enthusiast
CMerrell  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 206
Virginia USA
I think experience plays the biggest part in avoiding/dealing with capsize situations. The more you sail a boat, the more you will be in tune with how the boat reacts to wind, waves, trim, etc. Violent capsizes on a cat (pitchpole) are the result of the hull(s) being forced underwater while the sails continue to accelerate. This happens in breezier conditions (12-15+ kts.), can happen upwind or downwind and is caused by hitting a wave and/or catching a wind puff. Time on the tiller will teach you how to steer through waves, react to puffs and recognize puffs on the water (you may know this from your monohull experience). "Non-violent" capsizes are typically the result of trying to fly a hull and letting the boat go a little too far.

I don't have too much experience on the TheMightyHobie18. I would think the longer length and higher volume hulls would make it much less prone to pitchpole/capsize. It definately has a higher crew carrying capacity but is also bigger and heavier. The H16 has a reputation for pitchpoling. This is overstated a bit by other cat sailors (much as monohull sailors overstate all catamarans' tendency to capsize) and can be contolled by depowering, weight placement and all the other things experience teaches.

It's hard to go wrong with a H16 or TheMightyHobie18 as a catamaran for the family.

How Panic Prone Are Your Kids [Re: papayamon2] #23289
04/19/05 01:11 PM
04/19/05 01:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1
S
sacco Offline
stranger
sacco  Offline
stranger
S

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1
I've dumped my 12/13 year old on an H16 a few times. What was important was that the water was warm, we were wearing life jackets, he was comfortable in water, and we could right the damn thing. Probably the worst thing that could happen is me falling on him against something solid like the mast, boom, or hull. Regardless of brand, unless you're extremely careful of when not to go out, you're going over. When dumping over on the side, you want to just slide into the water under the boom. (Wow, going over the back side could be a 6ft fall onto the other hull - OUCH!) A pitchpole will typically toss you into the drink on the windward side of the mast. Either way, just going with it seems to be easier than fighting it. When you do, the kids are going to look to dad to keep his cool. I worked under the assumption that if he panicked, things could get ugly fast. Do it on purpose in a safe place in the spirit of fun so you all can get comfortable with it. As bothersome as motorboats can be, waterskiers are not reluctant to jump in and lend a hand if you're having trouble.

I'm kind of heavy and the TheMightyHobie18 has much more buoyancy. I've also read that the H16 pitchpoles much easier than the TheMightyHobie18 and the so I've upgraded to an TheMightyHobie18 this winter. Hoping the daggerboards don't add much more difficulty to the experience.

Re: question on capsizing [Re: papayamon2] #23290
04/19/05 07:48 PM
04/19/05 07:48 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
old hand
rhodysail  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
Good Advice From the Hobie Website
http://www.hobiecat.com/experience/learn.html


RIGHTING THE BOAT
If you tip the boat over, stay with the boat. The boat will not sink and is easy to right. It is not necessary, but it is easier, to right the boat when the bow and the mast are pointed into the wind as in the diagram.

There will be less wind resistance and better control in this position. Be sure the mainsheet is released, then swim around to the bottom of the boat. Skipper and crew should climb up on the hull and stand up. Using the righting line, skipper and crew pull the righting line that is against the upper hull and hold the line while slowly leaning back away from the trampoline. Lean to approximately 45 degrees for best leverage. As the mast and sail lift out of the water and the upper hull begins to drop back into the water, drop down to your knees then into the water. Hold onto the righting line near the crossbar or the crossbar itself near the hull that you were standing on. This will prevent the hull from being lifted into the air by momentum which could cause the boat to capsize once again. Be well aware of the hull and crossbar coming down over your head. Holding the crossbar or righting line will also insure that you remain with the boat when it is righted. Climb aboard and continue sailing.

[Linked Image]

Re: question on capsizing [Re: CMerrell] #23291
04/20/05 06:28 AM
04/20/05 06:28 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 66
Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, South A...
Clint_SA Offline
journeyman
Clint_SA  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 66
Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, South A...
My girlfriend are new to sailing (8months) but we've been trying to race offshore and in so have been out in pretty strong winds. When you're pushing it, pitch poles and side capesizing will happen. We've already had many (mostly due to swells), and neither of us has been hurt yet. Just going with the flow seems to work. You can also avoid it by adjusting the rake further back (release the jib halyard two inches or so) if you find the hull flying too much I think. The worse would be hitting the side stay full force in a pitch pole I would think. Just watch the leeward hull at all times (I need to when getting out on trapeze ) You'll find the more you fly the hull the more control you'll develop...pitch poling..well weight back. I also carry a 'life-line' in my box for windy days. It's a rope with several knots at about two foot intervals which runs along the beam (attached below the beam corners) to hold onto..check it out.


Dubulamanzi
Re: question on capsizing [Re: Clint_SA] #23292
04/23/05 11:37 PM
04/23/05 11:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3
Midwest City, OK
sooneraviator Offline
stranger
sooneraviator  Offline
stranger

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3
Midwest City, OK
went out today in OK. Nice pitchpole cause i was too far forward, first real time on the wire. Yup, 20-0 in 0.5s. I was thinking hmm, im gonna get to do that swing thing Ive heard about!, landed in front of the jib no sweat. My buddy was sitting in the middle of the tramp(no need for both on the wire) and he got a nasty bruise on his leg when he hit the mast on his was forward, but that was just happen stance. Like other have said, do a little practice in calm winds, sail with experienced sailors at first.

Re: question on capsizing [Re: sooneraviator] #23293
04/24/05 10:15 AM
04/24/05 10:15 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 32
Midland
Mac05 Offline
newbie
Mac05  Offline
newbie

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 32
Midland
Kids and capsizing… I bought our H16 last year as a family boat. I took it out the first few times with a friend who had lots of experience on H16’s, and all went well. The next few times I went out solo and had a great time. All of the excursions were in winds of 7 to 10 knots. I took the kids out (age 9 & 11) and they loved it. I still hadn’t flipped the boat. Then the inevitable happened: 2 kids on board, the hull came up, I didn’t react quick enough and over it went. One of the kids stayed on and one slid down and went in the drink. Everyone had life jackets on. I was worried that the kids would panic, but it turned out I had nothing to worry about. Quite the opposite as they thought it was great. I soon had 2 kids using the upper hull as a jumping platform while I tried in vain to right the boat. A boatful of water tubers stopped and helped us get it back on its feet. I now have a righting bag and I can right it very quickly solo. I had to practice righting by going out to the swimming raft and grabbing a pontoon top flip it over. The confidence level went way up after I got that maneuver figured out. I have yet to do a violent pitchpole, but, hey, bring it on!

Re: question on capsizing [Re: Mac05] #23294
04/25/05 01:03 PM
04/25/05 01:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 152
Central Texas
yoh Offline
member
yoh  Offline
member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 152
Central Texas
Capsizing is fun... I am serious... It happens slowly, it is predictable, and it is not hard on sailor and boat. Everybody who sails a Hobie 16 will sooner or later capsize every once in a while - at the same time everybody should know about proper technique and equipment (bag/pole) to get the cat back up (preferably on their own)
Pitch poling is a completely different deal. Happens very fast - in some situations there is not enough time to react fast and sufficient enough to avoid a pichpole. Since the pich poling happens so fast it bears some risk of injury (it is most of the time the bridle wire that is in your way to the water - not mast or shroud) they are hard on the cat (severe deceleration) and you run the risk of turteling, which is way more difficult to take care of than a capsize (especially solo).
Patrick


Patrick, Hobie 16 '85

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