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Big Guys and Wave Racing #234067
06/26/11 05:56 PM
06/26/11 05:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline OP
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline OP
newbie

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
I've just had two very discouraging days of sailing on the Wave. I have lots of experience racing most of the Hobie's and I would be quick to tell you that I'm good at it. In all six races I sailed in I started alongside or maybe a boat length behind everybody else. By the top mark I was 50 yards back, by the bottom mark 150 yards back, by the finish maybe 300 or 400 yards back from the pack. I'm 6'1" and weigh about 280 pounds, but these guys are all over 200 pounds I'd say. It feels to me like I need a tiller extension to move forward in the boat. When I raced a 17 or an 18 in light air I'd be forward of the front cross member. Downwind today I was getting the boat going in the right direction and then sliding forward to the cross member. Then when the boat was a little off course I'd go back and straighten it out and then go forward again. That way I'm half a touch faster but I wasn't catching anybody. I've got a Windy-tech sail off of Ebay and a Whirlwind and the results seem identical with either one. Anybody got any ideas before I start petitioning the IWCA to allow the tiller extension?

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Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #234078
06/27/11 07:13 AM
06/27/11 07:13 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
IndyWave Offline
enthusiast
IndyWave  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
I put a tiller extension on mine, but I remove it when racing with IWCA. Locals don't know the difference.

A class-legal manueuver is to tie the bitter end of the mainsheet to a corner of the tiller crossbar, and tug to steer.

What most folks do when racing downwind is to simply lie face-down on the tramp (head foreward) and steer with your toes. There are lots of photos on this site of IWCA racers employing this technique.


What - Me Worry?


2006 Hobie Wave 7358
"Ish Kabibble"
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #234133
06/28/11 05:02 AM
06/28/11 05:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
old hand
David Parker  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
I don't know if this is class legal but here is what I've been doing.

I have a long bungie hooked in my center lacing for storage. I hook it on the lacing forward of the tiller crossbar and take a full turn or two around the bar, then stretch it as far forward as it can go and hook it again to the lacing. Now I can lie WAY forward and steer either way by pressing sideways on the bungie with my foot. This works in light air only, of course. It is really nice downwind as the extra turn hold it quite steady and I only need occasional tweaks to hold a steady course. Gives me time to find and open a beer!

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: David Parker] #234135
06/28/11 06:43 AM
06/28/11 06:43 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
IndyWave Offline
enthusiast
IndyWave  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
I like this idea!

Class-legal or not, I'll have a bungee on mine tonight.


What - Me Worry?


2006 Hobie Wave 7358
"Ish Kabibble"
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: IndyWave] #234175
06/28/11 02:40 PM
06/28/11 02:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
Just don't fall off! smile


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: IndyWave] #234211
06/29/11 01:40 PM
06/29/11 01:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Tiller extensions are not allowed and for a very good reason. Nor are any lines, bungees, or the like. You have to steer with your hands, feet or whatever other body part you feel will work. Hummm, that leaves a lot to the imagination.
After 14 years of racing them we have all concluded that lighter sailors are faster off the wind. But, once we found that the taller, heavier people could get further forward than the little people, they did not gain as much distance. If they had extensions, you would automatically lose all bigger sailors in the class.
There may be many other factors to your problems. Several of us tried Whirlwind and made suggestions to Chip to get them faster, but he didnít particularly want to work with to get them faster. For your weight you will need a fuller sail than your smaller competitors. At this point the best sailmakers are Calvert (sold on this site) and Bossset North Sails (NJ somewhere). I am playing with a Dacron Calvert that is very full Ė I was 235, but now down to 192.
Next there is the rigging. The hot setup is to use a 10 hole adjuster on the forestay and have slack sidestays. Mine were so slack I took the adjusters off and just use shackles.
As you found out weight distribution is paramount.


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: RickWhite] #234219
06/30/11 06:05 AM
06/30/11 06:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline OP
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline OP
newbie

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
Thanks, Rick. I read somewhere, a back issue of the print edition I think, about techniques for us bigger guys to keep up. I was hoping for a magic bullet. It was up to 25 knots last night and it was a hoot! What a great boat! But, unfortunately for me, I still have a similar speed disadvantage. 50 yards at A, 300 or 400 at the finish. I'm using the 10 hole adjuster and really sloppy, hand can turn at least 45 degrees, stays. I don't believe that a $1000 sail is going to be 400 yards faster.

Discouraged.

Except for the fun of sailing the boat in that much breeze.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #234220
06/30/11 06:27 AM
06/30/11 06:27 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
The Dacron Calvert sail is priced pretty fairly at $588 and is definitely faster than Whirlwind. Here is the link:
https://store.catsailor.com/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=30719&idcategory=257

As I said the one I have is full, so I max out the downhaul and sheet really hard, hooking up the sheet as far forward as I can go, and that flattens it out pretty well. In light air, just ease it off.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: RickWhite] #234223
06/30/11 08:21 AM
06/30/11 08:21 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
J
jackbr549 Offline
journeyman
jackbr549  Offline
journeyman
J

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
Buy the best sail you can get and then learn how to use it, never cut back on the sail.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: jackbr549] #234351
07/04/11 06:52 PM
07/04/11 06:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline OP
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline OP
newbie

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
So that's it ... steer with your toes? Hard on my creaky old neck or hard on my creaky old knees. But I guess that's the price you pay for having fun. And I do enjoy sailing and racing this boat.

Thanks

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #234356
07/04/11 09:58 PM
07/04/11 09:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
J
jackbr549 Offline
journeyman
jackbr549  Offline
journeyman
J

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
Make sure the mast takes the slack out of the sidestays. I can't get my boat going with too much rake like the other sailor do. Get the boat to go on all points of sail if you have to give up somewhere.
Good Luck

Last edited by jackbr549; 07/04/11 09:59 PM.
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: jackbr549] #234393
07/05/11 11:15 AM
07/05/11 11:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline OP
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline OP
newbie

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
I didn't understand about the sidestays. However I've started trying moving the mast forward as you suggested. When I raced a 17 I had to have a lot less rake than the guys who were down to minimum weight. That was quicker downwind, and alas, slower upwind.

Appreciate the good luck. Thanks.

PS Most importantly my granddaughter loves the boat! The water splashes up through the centre of the trampoline.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #234441
07/06/11 06:32 AM
07/06/11 06:32 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
The reason for raking the mast aft is to put the center of sail effort more toward the rudders, thus making them the daggerboards.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: RickWhite] #234445
07/06/11 07:07 AM
07/06/11 07:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline OP
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline OP
newbie

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
Well, Rick, I've cleverly arranged for my boat to be deeper in the water, by a 1/2 " or so, to provide more resistance to leeway. So I should need to rely less on the rudders, right?

You know I could do some math, each hull is about 10.25 sq. ft. in area. Mine displaces about 100 pounds more water than yours, or 1.5 cubic feet, so I push the boat .14 inches deeper in the water. Call it an 1/8". Wait ... there's two hulls. So now we'll call it 1/16". Crap. It's hard for me to imagine that little bit of extra wetted surface makes any difference at all. Unless there's something I'm missing. I should quit whining and learn to sail.

Crap. Nut on the end of the tiller again.

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #234448
07/06/11 08:39 AM
07/06/11 08:39 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand
Mugrace72  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
BW,

It sounds like you have a fleet. Y'all ought to come down to the Put-In-Bay Bay Week Regatta. We will have nearly 30 Waves.

August 5-8.

We can argue with Rick about tiller extensions.

I think we should have a minimum crew weight of 150# and anyone over 180# can have a tiller extension. That is just my opinion.



Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: Mugrace72] #234454
07/06/11 09:17 AM
07/06/11 09:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
J
jackbr549 Offline
journeyman
jackbr549  Offline
journeyman
J

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
Check out the F18 YouTube on boat balance at the top of the page. Jack has a good idea. Come down to PIB and try out some other sails and see if your better. I'm sure you can If you get there a day or so early.

Last edited by jackbr549; 07/06/11 11:52 AM.
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: jackbr549] #234475
07/06/11 02:41 PM
07/06/11 02:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline OP
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline OP
newbie

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
The chance to race against 30 Waves and argue with Rick in the same place? Well that sounds like fun.

When other classes want to make rule changes they sometimes allow an "experimental" use of ... whatever. Then everybody gets some experience with how well it works or doesn't. Then they can implement the rule or not, and the guys that went ahead and took the risk have to take it off. At lesat they know up front what might happen.

Google maps says Put-In-Bay is on an island. Is that where the regatta is?

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: BigWhoop] #234495
07/06/11 11:31 PM
07/06/11 11:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
addict
Mike Fahle  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
First, do as Rick has suggested. Second, you can transfer your weight forward off the wind and still steer with your hands - you can lie down with your feet forward as easily as the other way around. Third, if you can get to P-I-B this summer, you will definitely learn a lot. Fourth, weight always makes a difference - pushing more than an extra cubic foot of water out of the way every boat length simply requires more energy. Laws of physics don't change for sailboat races. Finally, consider doing yourself a favor by losing some weight. Google your height/weight combo to see where the recommendation lies. It could be the best result that your sailboat racing ever produces! I would always welcome luck but more important is knowledge and preparation. Ever notice how lucky the best prepared people are? You can do it!!

Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: Mike Fahle] #234555
07/08/11 08:22 AM
07/08/11 08:22 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Your a tough-love coach, Mike!

Right on, Put in Bay is located on South Bass Island, probably the most fun island in North America. We have a strong fleet of racing sailors, including two world champs, 3 National Champs, and two North Americans. Plus for that regatta my son and daughter-in-law (she is two time national and one time NA)and he has been runner up to her most of those times.
SO, there will be a lot of talent and all are willing to share their knowledge


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Big Guys and Wave Racing [Re: RickWhite] #234585
07/08/11 05:41 PM
07/08/11 05:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
addict
Mike Fahle  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
No doubt; but I stand by what I wrote. As you know, Rick, I live with a Registered Dietition, so after 35 years of marriage I have become a disciple! It is no accident that at age 57 I am within a few pounds of the recommended weight at my height. I have way too many friends and relatives with serious health issues due directly to obesity so I am no longer shy about recomendations on the topic. It is THE NUMBER ONE thing that people can do as a present to themselves! I used my Boyer Mark IV A cat as incentive to get down to its weight of 165 pounds to be able to sail it. Whatever it takes! In the meantime, BigWhoop can get a fuller sail and do the other things you advised. I hope he keeps pressing to improve and can shed some pounds in the process. As you know, the Wave is a great boat to find racers who will challenge you all the way around the course!


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