I was under the impression that the reinforcing material was a mistake... NOT a push for an edge. Is this still the basic understanding?

Obviously..... the issue is not the baby... it's to hammer this loft and make them an example to all of the other lofts... but also to the sailors.... "Hmmm should I take a chance on a small loft... hmmm... if they screw up... I am the one screwed..."

Mark
I disagreee with you only because the sails named in the origional complaint were all the "rockstars". I'm pretty sure the team boats for Cirrus and Phantom know what their sails are made from. These are the people who go to the factory and lofts when their stuff is made. They knew, they gambled they lost.
The only fair thing to do is throw out those results. You cheat you get caught you pay the price. If only some of the S.I. sails were wrong and some were legal this was no accident.

Ah...

The evidence has been reported that there was no performance advantage.

No one is saying it's an accident... it is an error in judgement for sure!

Now you have elevated the charge to cheating. ie willful disobeying the rules!

I don't think you can make that stick. The jury at the Worlds did not make it stick... Reinforcing tape is a measurable performance edge?? for real???

I bet the back story is all about market share for sails and who can stab who in the back without being noticed.



This the legend of past Hobie days... Blah Blah, rock star, had his boat specially fabricated, so its fast while joe schmo gets an ordinary (slow) boat. I heard these stories back in the day... I think it's a function of the strict one design mentality and the crap that you had to buy .. This mindset does not apply here.

1) The F18 class allows custom sails... the team get get what ever they want custom made so long as it measures in. So.. no problem... Joe Schmo can get the same service... he just has to know what to ask for (oops)!

2) There is a reason all boats are given unique names.... They are all individuals... Some boats, just like cars, just have that special thing... Ie... it's a fast boat. One of the very successful Olympic teams used their 10 year old Marstrom....not there newer boat... It just had that speed thing.. Why?... who knows.

At the top level... it's all about the mast...the nature of alu extrusions make them all unique and some are fast and others are not. Sorting through masts is part of the game... NOT a special advantage afforded the rock stars. Rock Stars know enough to discriminate. The Tornado's had to change to Carbon Fiber sticks to cut the crap when a development war in alu sticks made the playing field uneven. Again... Rock stars don't have a thumb on the scale with the builder, they have hard earned knowledge that makes a difference and they use it.

The playing field is level... its just a tough group of competitors on the field.

Details are hard to come by on this issue. Pretty hard to work out what the hell is going on.

Macca, if most of the sails are fine then can't the owners just have them remeasured?

Mark,
I've gotta agree with Rich. I don't think it's quite as innocent as you're making it out to be. It really doesn't matter either way without the facts, so we'll see.

Doesn't it surprise you that the FACTS are not officially put out there... Hmmm!

The class should have made a statement of fact findings public. Rather, they render judgements (Move along... nothing to see here for worlds.... Ban these sails forever)

The only one with some facts has been Macca... Another source would corroborate his facts.. Or the class could make their findings public to refute Macca's understanding. Something official is absolutely required!

If this was a mistake by the sail loft IMO, the sails should be repaired and independently re measured at the sailmakers cost (as Macca suggested).

If the loft is cheating and duped some buyers and some other sailors were CHEATING... then the class better have some definitive facts or be willing to go to court. The sail loft is out a lot more then 15K for 10 sails... His entire business is at stake in this market... and perhaps other markets.. Likewise, take each sailor, If you were duped by the loft, do you want your reputation clouded by the non disclosure of the class, it's all a big mystery!. If you did well in the regatta and the sails are now banned... do you want your reputation colored by the class who implies that you cheated but did not toss you?

So far, the class has at least two people convinced that those guys were cheaters...

I am amazed that the class thinks they can pull this stunt off and escape the terrible PR.

Mark
I was just pointing out that the ones involved are the kind of people who know every detail of their boat. It has nothing to do with the one design mentality. I understand that custom sails are available and own a nice set of Custom sails. However when I ordered them I made sure the sails would measure to be class legal and only use aproved materials from the F-18 class rules.

So if there is no performance advantage why would you use an unaproved material? When you base your name on your new boat and new sails then show up at the worlds with something thats illegal. It makes no sence.

I have no idea what the sailmaker was doing..

My guess is... He interpreted the rules to mean Sail Material must be legal... which it was..

He could have thought reinforcing tape is not regulated as sail material.

So, I would judge "mistake"... not cheating... Solution: fix mistake and re measure.

That is what the jury did Mistake... cary on.. .... NOW the class has some issues here that are not transparently resolved.

(I will be thunderstruck if you checked out the reinforcing tapes on your sail were on the proper list...)

Macca where are you???

We've kept statistics on the boats used in the Alter Cup for several years now. It's funny because the sailors always pick a couple of boats that they are sure are just "faster boats". The statistics, however, show a very uniform and even spread among boats and finish positions.

the story for this episode has changed over time. I would like to hear the real story about what was found to be illegal.

Jake,
Yes, I have always found that stat encouraging. Boat weights in good tolerance and performance pretty even.

I will be interested if the Olympic sailors will want a provided boat... If you think that boats are individuals...and at the very least... you want to know yours inside and out... you will not like a provided boat for the most important regatta of your life.

I have never had a second helping of a boat design so I can't say... if one seemed faster then the other.

No doubt, each boat is a unique individual to me though.
Your mileage may vary!

Actually had that very conversation 3 weeks ago with the sail maker and the local distributor. Watch out for the thunderstrike.

The local loft thought I was being OCD by making sure every detail was right and the sails would be legal.

Maybe when you have to buy the sails and boat yourself you care more.

I don't think the boats involved were cheating to get an advantage. I have talked with several of them in the past and are all great guys. However the material was not on the approved list so it is illegal.

To me this seems like someone said hey let's try this and it probably will work. Easier to ask for forgiveness later than permission now.

Why did I know you were OCD when I wrote that.... I just had a feeling it was coming back at me... (grin).

It's cool Mark I'll buy ya a beer at Hyannis.
(after you sign the cert for my sails)

The owners of the sails on the published list will now have to get them remeasured even though all but a few sets are perfectly legal.

Once again: there is really no performance advantage in the stickyback cloth being used.

All this mess over a minor, non performance related breach and all the while the buk of the fleet were using dynema trap lines which are clearly not allowed.


Imagine if the Shockwave foam core debacle was handled this way? There is an advantage in using corecell as it produces a stiffer panel yet the class let it go untouched.

Mark, do you have a dog in this fight? You seem to be really worked up over this.

Macca, what is the path forward for the Dyneema issue?

Mike

No dog... Two principals.. Fair play and transparency.

I just think that screwing some sailors and a loft that had the look of making a successful sail is a power play by the big $$$ players in the class. This issue is just a pretense to maintain their bit of market share. If your sock puppets make enough noise about the terrible violation committed by this small loft. (reinforcing tape) The effect will be to herd people to the big and safe sailmakers.

Look at Rich.... He had to go OCD on his sailmaker because of this.... Others won't.... they will go to performance or Hobie or whatever is a safe pick.. So, you speak out for Fair play when the power structure is throwing their weight around! I believe that having a LOCAL SAILMAKER is essential for growing and maintaining a development fleet. Their job is to service and educate us mortal sailors... Tilting the playing field unfairly is simply not good for the sport.

Transparency. The class is attempting to "handle" the issue. Why not release a factual report and solve the issue for other class members with a letter to each owner requesting re-measurement or what ever the fix would be.

I choose to believe that the overwhelming number of sailors are trying to play the game fairly... This one just smelled funny from the onset.

The Dyneema trap lines have been voted by the WC and when the next version of the rules have been approved by ISAF then they may well be legal, until that time they are not allowed as per the rule.

As Mark said, the issue is a total beatup of one loft, this was facilitated by the technical comm which is funnily enough made up with the bigger loft owners as the majority..

Thanks guys.

You know, there is an out for the Dyneema and batten issues. Per RRS 87, an event is allowed to change class rules within the SIs, with written permission from the class association.

Hopefully the OA is aware of these issues for the NAs, and is working to get ahead of it? The NOR is currently silent on equipment rule changes.

Mike