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Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions #235131
07/23/11 09:53 AM
07/23/11 09:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
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NorthernWave Offline OP
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I have prepared the following proposed rule changes in order to allow the use of tiller extensions. I submit them for your consideration and comment. If there seems to be a consensus for change I will submit the changes to the Rules Chairperson.

Rule 9.8

Current wording: No tiller extensions are allowed. Tiller yokes must be removed.

Proposed wording: Tiller extensions up to 36” long are allowed.

Rationale:

At the time the Final Draft of the Bylaws/Rules were approved in 2001, it was unforeseen that Hobie Co. would introduce a significant redesign of the rudder assembly. The tiller cross bar on the EZ LOC rudder assembly is approximately 12” aft of the tiller cross bar on the original rudder assemblies. Additionally, the molded rudder blades are not as consistently shaped as the standard Hobie fiberglass/EPO rudder blades.

As a result of the change in position of the tiller cross bar, it is not possible for sailors racing Waves equipped with the EZ LOC rudder assembly to move their weight as far forward on the boat as those sailing Waves equipped with the original rudder assemblies. This significantly affects upwind speed, and to a lesser extent downwind speed, particularly in light and medium winds.

Rule 1 states: ”The design and development of the Hobie Wave is directed towards a strict one-design class where the true test is between sailors and sailing skill, and not boats.” Through no fault of the organizers and members of the IWCA, the change in rudder assembly has rendered this fundamental principle of the IWCA invalid. Purchasers of new Hobie Waves are unable to compete on an equal footing footing with boats equipped with older rudder assemblies.

It seems unlikely that Hobie Co. will reintroduce the older rudder assembly as standard equipment. In order that as many future Wave sailors as possible (and present sailors of Waves equipped with EZ LOC rudder assembly) be encouraged to join the IWCA and participate in Wave racing, I propose that tiller extensions up to 36” long be allowed in the Class rules. This should go a long way mitigating the speed advantage of Waves equipped with original rudder assemblies.

Allowing tiller extensions will also increase the level of comfort while sailing – especially downwind. This will assist those who are less mobile, or who have back problems, etc., to enjoy sailing and racing.

I propose that tiller extensions be allowed on all Waves, regardless of rudder assembly design. Those sailing with the older assemblies would not enjoy equal downwind sailing and comfort benefits if tiller extensions were allowed only on EZ LOC equipped Waves.

I propose limiting tiller extension length to 36” so that tiller extensions would be less likely to become a factor in situations (start, finish, mark roundings) where boats are likely to be in close proximity to each other.

Rule 2

Proposed Change: Delete the sentence “Only changes which have no bearing on boat speed are allowed”

Rationale:

This change is necessary to allow tiller extensions.

Rule 2.1

Current wording: “To keep each boat as equal, simple and cost free as possible by rigidly maintaining, without deviation, the one-design features of the Hobie Wave for racing.”

Proposed wording:“To keep each boat as equal, simple and cost free as possible by maintaining, wherever possible, the one-design features of the Hobie Wave for racing.”

Rationale:

This change is necessary to allow tiller extensions. I think it is worth noting that other alternatives to introducing tiller extension as a means of equalizing boat speed – purchasing a used older rudder assembly (and top pintles) or buying the parts from Hobie Co. - would be anything but “cost free”. Also the supply of used older rudder assemblies decreases with each passing year.

Rule 6

Current wording: “...Approved changes are as follows: Stronger gudgeons, larger diameter wires, slight shimming of crossbars, and reinforced flanges not affecting water flow. Except as allowed in these rules, any changes or additions that in any way can be construed as speed devices are not class legal.”

Proposed wording: (emphasis added for clarity – not intended to be part of the final draft) “...Approved changes are as follows: Stronger gudgeons, larger diameter wires, tiller extensions up to 36” in length, slight shimming of crossbars, and reinforced flanges not affecting water flow. Except as allowed in these rules, any changes or additions that in any way can be construed as speed devices are not class legal.”

Rationale:

This change is necessary to allow tiller extensions.


Don Thompson
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Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: NorthernWave] #235135
07/23/11 11:38 AM
07/23/11 11:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
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This is a well reasoned and carefully worded proposal; Nice work! My only comment would be not to limit the length of the extension because in other boats the tiller extension is very rarely a problem when boats are close to each other and I can anticipate a debate that there would still be an advantage to the longer tillered boats with a restricted tiller extension length which would be a moot point with no limit (practical matters will decide a limit for each racer).

I also anticipate resistance to the change just to keep the boat simple but I think that if everyone is honest they will not add one if they think there is no advantage and and should allow it if they think there is an advantage. Very few racers make no attempt to move forward downwind so that is evidence that most think there is an advantage. The change should be easy and inexpensive and make racing fairer and more comfortable for everyone. Therefore I second the proposal.

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: Mike Fahle] #235172
07/25/11 08:58 AM
07/25/11 08:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline
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Ottawa, Canada
If we need a thirder I'm there. I'd like to propose that we make the rule effective 1 August 2011 on a temporary basis. Then various people will try it and we'll know how it works and who it favours. Then the vote could be to make it an official rule at the Nationals in 2012.

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: BigWhoop] #235176
07/25/11 10:04 AM
07/25/11 10:04 AM

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Well written. The one thing I can tell you is the IHCA will never go for a tiller ext on the Wave, so that would prevent IWCA/HCA joint racing going forward if that rule change passes to the IWCA rules. I see that as a bad thing to be honest, but understand why you'd want the tiller ext.

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: ] #235189
07/25/11 11:57 AM
07/25/11 11:57 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

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What is wrong with just extending your tiller to the length of the old style?



Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: RickWhite] #235191
07/25/11 12:24 PM
07/25/11 12:24 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
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NorthernWave Offline OP
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Ottawa, Ontario
I gave some thought to doing that and did a kind of mockup. Aside from being a violation of the rules, the tiller cross bar won't allow the the rudders to be raised with the mainsheet attached to the sail. It lifts too high. I suspect that kind of arrangement would even interfere with the ability of the rudders to kick-up when the main is sheeted tightly.

Don


Don Thompson
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: NorthernWave] #235196
07/25/11 02:18 PM
07/25/11 02:18 PM

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xanderwess
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Rick
That is what I am thinking too, and am trying to figure a way to make the lengths 'objective' meaning measuring back from the mast base. His objection about the EZloc raising too high is factual, but its maybe the only answer to even this particular varible out of the equation for being different lengths. I have asked for help with this from Matt Miller before I get too far in my thinking. I seriously think a tiller ext. is the wrong way to go on the Wave.

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: RickWhite] #235236
07/26/11 12:59 PM
07/26/11 12:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
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Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Compare doing that to just simply adding an extension. Which would you rather do? Then consider that you would be asking mostly newbies to do that - doesn't seem likely they would know how or have the confidence to make the change. (Matt Miller's comments make this a moot point anyway as essentially it is not an option). In contrast, adding a tiller extension benefits everyone by making it much more comfortable to sail downwind in any position you please and it is quick, easy, and inexpensive to do. To get (and keep)as many owners interested in racing as possible, it seems like a pretty easy decision. So to reverse your question, what is wrong with that? You could make money selling a "Rick White approved" tiller extension!

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: Mike Fahle] #235276
07/27/11 06:18 AM
07/27/11 06:18 AM
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Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
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NorthernWave Offline OP
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NorthernWave  Offline OP
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Ottawa, Ontario
Hi Folks,

I think I'm about ready to submit the proposed Rules changes to the Rules Chairperson. There have been over a hundred views. While only a few have posted their agreement, the only person to come out opposed to the changes has reconsidered and lent his support.

I am still uncertain about whether I should include a maximum length for the tiller extension. Mike Fahle has raised a question about this. In general, I agree with him that it may not be necessary to limit the length. My reason for originally including a 36" maximum length was that I had visions of someone using an old H17 hiking stick.....which seems kind of silly now.

Comments on whether I should include a 36" limit in my submission?

Don (NorthernWave)


Don Thompson
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: NorthernWave] #235277
07/27/11 06:56 AM
07/27/11 06:56 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline
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BigWhoop  Offline
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Ottawa, Canada
"If in doubt leave it out."

I haven't a clue about tiller extension length. And I'm pretty sure nobody else does either since nobody has used one in racing. Not legal. For this very reason I propose we make the rule effective immediately on a temporary basis. Then various people will try it and we'll know how it works. Then the vote could be to make it an official rule at the Nationals in 2012. A lot of people will have a lot more experience by then.

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: BigWhoop] #235320
07/28/11 07:10 AM
07/28/11 07:10 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Mugrace72  Offline
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Originally Posted by BigWhoop
"If in doubt leave it out."

I haven't a clue about tiller extension length. And I'm pretty sure nobody else does either since nobody has used one in racing. Not legal. For this very reason I propose we make the rule effective immediately on a temporary basis. Then various people will try it and we'll know how it works. Then the vote could be to make it an official rule at the Nationals in 2012. A lot of people will have a lot more experience by then.


I am for it simply because I believe it will help equalize a parameter that is now unequal. We really don't know what the actual benefits will be, if any, until we try it.

I agree that a test phase would be wise. In fact, it would be nice to try it during Bay Week which is only a week from now.


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: Mugrace72] #235321
07/28/11 07:43 AM
07/28/11 07:43 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
N
NorthernWave Offline OP
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NorthernWave  Offline OP
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Ottawa, Ontario
Hi again,

I just submitted a proposal for rule changes to the Rules Chairman - Chip Short. Compared with draft posted earlier, I dropped the length restriction and included a suggestion that tiller extensions be allowed on a trial basis. I also cleaned up the grammar, etc. a bit. Here is what I submitted:



Rule 9.8

Current wording: No tiller extensions are allowed. Tiller yokes must be removed.

Proposed wording: Tiller extensions are allowed.

Rationale:

At the time the Final Draft of the Bylaws/Rules were approved in 2001, it was unforeseen that Hobie Co. would introduce a significant redesign of the rudder assembly. The tiller cross bar on the EZ LOC rudder assembly is approximately 12” aft of the tiller on the original rudder assemblies. Additionally, the moulded rudder blades are not as consistently shaped as the standard Hobie fiberglass/EPO rudder blades.

As a result of the change in position of the tiller cross bar, it is not possible for sailors racing Waves equipped with the EZ LOC rudder assembly to move their weight as far forward on the boat as those sailing Waves equipped with the original rudder assemblies. This significantly affects upwind speed, and to a lesser extent downwind speed, particularly in light and medium winds.

Rule 1 states: ”The design and development of the Hobie Wave is directed towards a strict one-design class where the true test is between sailors and sailing skill, and not boats”. Through no fault of the organizers and members of the IWCA, the change in rudder assembly has rendered this fundamental principle of the IWCA invalid. Purchasers of new Hobie Waves are unable to compete on an equal footing footing with boats equipped with older rudder assemblies.

It seems unlikely that Hobie Co. will reintroduce the older rudder assembly as standard equipment. In order that as many future Wave sailors as possible (and present sailors of Waves equipped with EZ LOC rudder assembly) be encouraged to join the IWCA and participate in Wave racing, I propose that tiller extensions be allowed in the Class rules. This should go a long way mitigating the speed advantage of Waves equipped with original rudder assemblies.

Allowing tiller extensions will also increase the level of comfort while sailing – especially downwind. This will assist those who are less mobile (or who have back problems, etc.) to enjoy sailing and racing.

I propose that tiller extensions be allowed on all Waves, regardless of rudder assembly design. This will enable those sailing with the older rudder assemblies to enjoy the same downwind sailing and comfort benefits as those sailing tiller extension equipped EZ LOC Waves.

I also propose that tiller extensions be allowed as soon as possible on a trial basis in order to evaluate the effects of these rule changes before a final vote is made on them.

Rule 2

Proposed Change: Delete the sentence “Only changes which have no bearing on boat speed are allowed”

Rationale:

This change is necessary to allow tiller extensions.

Rule 2.1

Current wording: “To keep each boat as equal, simple and cost free as possible by rigidly maintaining, without deviation, the one-design features of the Hobie Wave for racing.”

Proposed wording:“To keep each boat as equal, simple and cost free as possible by maintaining, wherever possible, the one-design features of the Hobie Wave for racing.”

Rationale:

This change is necessary to allow tiller extensions. I think it is worth noting that other alternatives to introducing tiller extension as a means of equalizing boat speed (e.g. purchasing a used older rudder assembly (and top pintles) or buying the parts from Hobie Co.) would be anything but “cost free”. Also, the supply of used older rudder assemblies decreases with each passing year.

Rule 6

Current wording: “...Approved changes are as follows: Stronger gudgeons, larger diameter wires, slight shimming of crossbars, and reinforced flanges not affecting water flow. Except as allowed in these rules, any changes or additions that in any way can be construed as speed devices are not class legal.”

Proposed wording: (emphasis added for clarity – not intended to be part of the final draft) “...Approved changes are as follows: Stronger gudgeons, larger diameter wires, tiller extensions, slight shimming of crossbars, and reinforced flanges not affecting water flow. Except as allowed in these rules, any changes or additions that in any way can be construed as speed devices are not class legal.”

Rationale:

This change is necessary to allow tiller extensions.


Don Thompson
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: NorthernWave] #235322
07/28/11 07:58 AM
07/28/11 07:58 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

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After reading Matt's post if you extended each arm to the length of the old style and leave the crossbar where it is, they the sailor could be as far forward as any others with the old system. Ergo, no need for an extension.

And if you basing your assertion on making it even, why not have an extension that same length as the difference between the old and new style?


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: RickWhite] #235326
07/28/11 08:37 AM
07/28/11 08:37 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
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NorthernWave Offline OP
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Ottawa, Ontario
That would solve the upwind sailing issue, and with a little creative tube bending (picture the handle on many golf carts) it would even be as comfortable under most conditions. Light winds would still present a problem if you want to move your weight towards the middle of the boat.

Downwind, it would be awkward. You want to be in the center of the boat, but the tillers would be centred over each hull.

I would have to do a mockup, but I believe such an arrangement would still interfere with the ability of the rudders to kickup (or raise) with the sail sheeted in tight and the rudders hard over. (The extended tillers would still be under the sail)

A "12" tiller extension (the difference in position between the tiller cross bars on the two rudder systems) does not equalize the boats. Think of a 12" arc centered on the tiller cross bar of the EZ LOC system. It does nothing for upwind sailing and next to nothing for downwind sailing. I have found that a 30" tiller extension just about equalizes the "hand position" for upwind sailing.

Finally, tiller extensions are a known quantity. They are readily available, inexpensive, and easy to install and uninstall. Custom made tillers would be relatively expensive, difficult to install, probably difficult to uninstall, and there is no existing design. Who would want to cut up their factory tillers just so they could enter a regatta? The purpose of my proposal is to open up IWCA racing to as many Wave sailors as possible.


Don Thompson
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: NorthernWave] #235356
07/28/11 01:37 PM
07/28/11 01:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
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I second the proposal again. It just seems to be a "no-brainer" solution to address the rudder issue caused by the change Hobie made several years ago. While I am not affected by that, I recognize that we should not risk losing any potential racers to this issue when such an easy fix is available. As others have pointed out, racers are a tiny minority in the Wave experience so we should strive to remove any potential barrier to entry and this does that. The added value for everyone is that they could race in comfort instead of contorting their bodies in an effort to move their weight forward in light to medium wind on the downwind legs. It would be the first substantive IWCA rules change that I can think of but one definitely worth making.

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: NorthernWave] #235357
07/28/11 01:40 PM
07/28/11 01:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Mugrace72  Offline
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Alachua, FL
Originally Posted by NorthernWave
Finally, tiller extensions are a known quantity. They are readily available, inexpensive, and easy to install and uninstall. Custom made tillers would be relatively expensive, difficult to install, probably difficult to uninstall, and there is no existing design. Who would want to cut up their factory tillers just so they could enter a regatta? The purpose of my proposal is to open up IWCA racing to as many Wave sailors as possible.


I agree completely and this is a reversible solution. In hindsight, to allow or even encourage folks to cobble up their tiller arms is certainly a step in the wrong direction and it would create an unacceptable enforcement situation.

An off-the-shelf extension is easy to source and you can even make your own with very little cost and effort.


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: Mugrace72] #235385
07/29/11 06:31 AM
07/29/11 06:31 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

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As you are aware I am not in favor of fixing something that is not broken. The class has thrived and grown over the years and is still doing so. While the new rudder system has some drawbacks, it also has some advantages. I chartered one at Pensacola Beach and finished 3rd overall. One big advantage I found was on screaming reaches you can really much farther aft. I passed 7 boats on a reach and took the lead.

So, while you are addressing one problem, you are not addressing another. With an extension you will be able to forward, yet with the old system you will be at a disadvantage as you are unable to get farther aft.

I am having trouble understanding why you want to get so far forward upwind. Most of us sail right around the hump of the hull, not up near the cross beam. That could be one of the slowness problems – keep in mind the bow entry of the design is very blunt.., almost like a beer can, unlike the TheMightyHobie18 where we did depress the relatively sharp bows.

Jack, the North Coast Championship is a IWCA Sanctioned event and must use the class rules. And that means no extension, otherwise the sailor can be protested.
For non-sanctioned events, I see no reason why you all can’t experiment

As for the rules proposal, here is how a rule is changed:
b. Changes to the class rules:
i. Proposed permanent rule changes shall be submitted, by any member to the Rules Chairperson, for consideration at least 30 days prior to the annual meeting. Upon consideration of the change, the rules committee may either:
1. Recommend the change.
2. Reject the proposed change.
3. Modify the proposed change.
ii. Upon b.i.1 or b.i.3 above,
1. A Web site posting shall occur stating the proposed change, at least 15 days prior to the meeting.
2. A "YES" vote by a two-thirds votes of the membership present, providing there is a quorum, including absentee ballots and proxy votes at the annual meeting shall be sufficient to change the class rule.
3. To take effect on March 1st of the following year.


The Annual Meeting will take place during the Annual Wave Nationals in Key Largo, scheduled for the first weekend in December.


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: RickWhite] #235390
07/29/11 07:37 AM
07/29/11 07:37 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
IndyWave Offline
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Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
I'll vote for the tiller extension amendment also!

I have posted photos of the simple (dual) system I made for about $15 with parts from Lowe's electrical department. No holes to drill, and it stows itself for safety when not in use. I have sailed with it all the time for several years now, and love it. Without the extension, I could not sit on the hump between the seat pads and steer effectively.

I do agree with Rick that the shorter arms can be an advantage in heavier winds when you want your weight all the way back, such as in strong Florida winds. Unfortunately, in Indiana, that almost never happens. Most sailing is done in light air, with the bows in the air and the sterns cavitating, unless I use the extension to move forward and balance the boat.

So I'll suggest an amendment to the amendment: allow the old style tiller arms to be shortened to match the EZ-Locs (which would be easier than lengthening the new ones) then add the extensions. THEN everyone would be equal!


What - Me Worry?


2006 Hobie Wave 7358
"Ish Kabibble"
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: IndyWave] #235404
07/29/11 10:28 AM
07/29/11 10:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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mmiller  Offline
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California
I was asked to post a comment that I had made about this issue in another thread.

Quote
I'd say allow a hiking stick on either version. You cannot lengthen tiller arms on an EZ Loc system. That will not work. The tiller crossbar has to be aft of the sail clew to raise the rudders.

Next... maybe dis-allow raising one rudder when sailing. Most of the difference solved. Ez Loc rudders sail pretty much the same as do aluminum systems with blades down... raising one blade is the biggest difference for racing. The difference in Ackerman effect is minimal. EZ Loc systems do not work well with one blade up. The tiller arm up/down geometry causes issues.

Last... why did we change to EZ Loc to begin with? This was not cost driven. This was to simplify raising and lowering rudders period... which was a big problem for the majority of users. This has been a HUGE success. No more heavy weather helm from an incorrectly locked down rudder, no stuck cams, no sandy plunger lubricant. It's a great system. Yes, we had to move the tiller crossbar aft and remove the Ackerman to make it work, but well worth the changes.

Lastly... we reserve the right to make changes to the Wave and Getaway as we please. No questions would be asked of racers for approval. These are our bread and butter entry level boats... these are not stuck in one design slots. They are simply meant to be fun and easy to sail. Which they certainly are.


I also agree that shortening the original length arms to EZ Loc length makes sense as an option.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: RickWhite] #235409
07/29/11 11:52 AM
07/29/11 11:52 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Mugrace72  Offline
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Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Originally Posted by RickWhite
Jack, the North Coast Championship is a IWCA Sanctioned event and must use the class rules. And that means no extension, otherwise the sailor can be protested.
For non-sanctioned events, I see no reason why you all can’t experiment



I agree that there should be no change until the class follows the procedure for a proper vote.

I personally have no skin in this but I am very aware that there are perceived issues that newbees feel that keeps them out of the top 10. The rudders are one of these, so anything we can do to mitigate these perceived differences will help growth.


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
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