Looking for the best boat to handle Lake Michigan swells and strong winds, sandbars, etc. Thinking of Hobie SC21, supercat, g-cat. Anxious to educate myself on the subject. Have sailed Hobie 16 a fair bit. Looking for something I can sail, right, and beach myself but more often with two or more people. There's a Nacra 5.2 in the neighborhood for sale but it looks like it might be a wet boat and the tramp looks kind of small with the bar down the middle. Any suggestions/opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Hey Tad,

The 21SC would be ideal, however, its heavy as sin, 600lbs. Lugging that thing around alone on the beach is nigh impossible.

The N5.2 would be more wet, and that tramp bar is a bitch for your crew.

-Tad

It sounds like you are looking for a boat that can carry some weight yet will be relatively user-friendly. I would suggest you think boardless or at the very least, centerboard boats rather than daggerboard ones. Boardless (affordable/not new) boats are Nacra 5.O and 5.7, Prindle 16 and 18, Hobie 16, and all the G-cats. I'd rule out all the 16's based simply on size. I have no personal knowledge of the G-cats. P-18 is an asymmetrical hull vs. Nacra 5.7's symmetrical one; the Prindle will point a little better but the Nacra will be a bit faster (absolute top speed) and a bit wetter.

Centerboard boats are Hobie 17, Prindle 18-2, Prindle 19, Tornado, and Hobie 21. Hobie 17 is a singlehander and will handle only about 200 lbs competently; both Prindles are good choices due to weight-carrying abilities, beam, and overall weight under 400 lbs; Tornados are quite affordable for the older non-competitive ones (non-Marstroms) but are overwidth for towing unless disassembled or using a tilt trailer, and the Hobie is heavy.

Finally, the Supercat 17 and 19, while daggerboard boats, would make good choices as well. The 19, particularly, was offered with or without daggerboards, but the hull shape was not changed; the dagger wells were just omitted. You could take a 19 and sail it either way; Bill Roberts, the original designer, told me a couple years ago when I was contemplating buying a 19 that if I wanted I could make plugs to fair the daggerwells and the boat would sail just fine without the boards.

good luck

How about a Mystere 6.0? You can get them with wings, and a front tramp as well. High freeboard, centreboards. Not sure of the weight, but I think around 400lbs.

For what you want, I have to say it's G-Cat all the way. High free-board, high-bouyancy, boardless-yet-symmetrical hull design, very durable 3-beam design with dual trampolines and best of all... simple.

You can take it apart with two 5/16" (or was it 1/2"?) wrenches. The mast, mast beam, and rear beam are all the same straight section, the front beam is a H14 mast section.

The rudder system is extremely simple and effective, though parts are difficult to find for it. I'm looking to put a Hobie system on my boat next, as my stock system was wrecked after a nasty storm flipped the boat on the beach. The Dotan system I have now seems a bit unreliable (upper gudgeon keeps braking off).

I've seen G-cat 5.0Ms (16'8") carry 6 people easily, without even putting the hull stripes under and without detracting performance to intolerable levels. My G-Cat 5.7M (18'8") has carried 8 people in 15knot winds and 5' rolling seas and it carried on very well and lively.

When my friends and I go camp-sailing, I can toss my stuff on the front trampoline and go. My friends have things tied down all over and have to climb over it on each tack. Unfortunately, this leads to my boat carrying most of the 'comunal' gear (like the firewood, coal, and grill)....

I mostly sail mine alone, but I cannot right it solo yet. I'm planning to fit a righting bar soon, fashioned from a windsurfing mast. I'd recomend the 5.0M if you sail alone often in winds 10 knots or more- it will be easier to handle.

I think that Brian (pshyco15) summed it up pretty well in his post except, that he left out a boat or two; particularly the one that Dave mentioned, the Mystere 6.0.

Please indulge my off topic note to Brian here since he mentioned something in his post about Dotan rudders.

I have heard that the Dotans are not very sturdy or reliable. I see that you have them on your boat and are going to replace them because you are not satisfied with them.

I have heard it said before that Dotan is a failure on a Gcat. Perhaps it was you saying it or maybe even another Gcat sailor. Either way, I find it very interesting that Gcat's brand new boat is using them, the Dotans. I am intrigued!

It seems that if you were having trouble with them, then so would the factory. My point here is that either the factory is making a bad choice (and I will have to give them the benefit of the doubt here and assume that the system that they have chosen is good) or perhaps Gcat and Dotan have ironed out any wrinkles in the system. If this is the case, maybe you will find your solution to your performance issues with your Dotans in this arena.

Why don't you contact the Gcat and Dotan factories and find out what they did to take care of the weaknesses? I hope you do and I hope you find the solution! I also hope that I will hear about the results of your inquiry.

[color:"green"] I digress to the topic of this thread: [/color] sailing/camping.
Just for background, consider that I am a sailing/camper. I use a Mystere 6.0 and always (except once) take a crew along when doing this sort of sailing. I single hand most of my sailing time, but for camping I have crew.

If I were trying to manhandle a M6.0 around the surf and beaches, solo, I'd be screwed. They are extremely heavy boats. I have not weighed any of my boats, but my Nacra 6.0 (for sale) feels as if it is at least a hundred pounds lighter than the Mystere 6.0.

Still, I love my boat for many reasons. But I won't allow my own choice and preference jade my opinion here in trying to help you choose.

I must agree with Brian that the Prindle 18, 18.2, and 19 are probably the best choices for what you have laid out as your requirements. Particularly the 18, since you should be able to get one at such a low price, that you will have money left over to use on customizing it to use for camping.

If you are going to be in some very serious swells and chop, then the Mystere 6.0 is better in resisting nose dives. That is what makes it my choice, the superior forward hull buoyancy.

I think the key thing in Brian's post is that you should shy away from dagger boards if you are cruising, camping, and dealing with shoals, sandbars, or other obstacles such as underwater plants and huge fish.

There have been some really good remarks made on this forum about camping gear and how to carry it. Here are a couple of really interesting threads to take a look at:
Stowing stuff on board
and
Trampoline storage modification ideas?

I was disappointed to see those two threads go quiet. I enjoyed them.

GARY

These are very helpful suggestions. Andrew relates Bill Roberts statement that the SC 19 can be sailed without daggerboards. I am looking for a supercat but they seem hard to find. How do you think a Nacra 5.2 would sail without it's daggerboards?

I've done that before for kicks and I'll tell you a 5.2 without boards sails like a pig on a greased floor....i.e. not very well. The hulls just don't have much of a vertical component to get any bite in the water. It slides sideways and will not turn very well. (but I loved sailing that boat)

The Hobie 21 would be a great boat if it wouldn't be so darn right heavy; I'd stay away from it because even with the Hobie Bob on the mast, if you do flip it you'll have a tough time getting it back up. I'm not really sure if a boardless boat has that much of an advantage for you because of the type of water you'll normally be sailing in.

Fragile boats (e.g. Hobie Miracle) are usually not very beach friendly because they don't take the sand too well; you can't carry your beach wheels with you all the time. I've seen Mystere 6.0s racing in my area, but I'm really not sure on how tough they are because I always see them being moved around on beach wheels.

I live on Lake Erie, and sail there usually 50 days per year. Normally, I don't go out in anything over 18 knots, but we have been stuck out there a few times in weather over 25. I sail a Hobie 18 magnum (with wings) and found the boat perfect for the larger swells and surf. It's great at handling the heavier weather and easier to move around. The boards are not much of a problem; once you get in deeper water you drop them down. In our sailing area, we easily launch the boat off the beach without the boards, then wait about 1/4 mile to drop the boards. You do have some drift while beating, but you can make it easily.

I've seen the Nacra 5.8s and 6.0s do quite well in the heavier weather also, but the ride is a lot wetter than sitting on my wings.

Good luck. Let us know what you decide to do.

Wyatt

Availability has so much to do with price the how much quality you may find. This brings to mind the Hobie 18 option. Although it has dagger boards, they do tend to push up when hitting sand. (from my minor experience, hitting sand about three times) They have very rounded tips that help them to push upwards.

The TheMightyHobie18 is a great boat with enough buoyancy for some extra gear. They are easy to sail and remain quite stable when the conditions become tough.

GARY

we are testing the dotan rudder system we let you know howe it works.remember g-cat has one of the best rudder system on the market today.but ther is allways a better way,the g-cat with the forward tramp is one of the best beach and camping boats on the market.

if you need rudder parts for the g-cat let me know i be able to help.

Gary- It was probably me that was telling you about my previous problems with the Dotan system. Neither me nor my friend have been able to get the top gudgeon to hold up for very long. I even paid Ralf (of Bradenton Beach Boat Rentals) to install them and adjust them the last time. Afterwards I sailed in some heavy weather and had the boat going faster than ever before and it handled beautifully. However a month or so later the handling started to get worse again and then the upper gudgeon sheered off. This same thing happened twice to my friend on his P18-2 and he's now running a salvaged Hobie system. The Hobie system he's using must be 10-15 years old (and the rudders may be the originals- the look like crap) and it's already lasted longer on his boat that the Dotans. I'm hoping to have the same luck and end up with better parts availability. Hopefully I can sell my old Dotan system to some dingy sailors at the local sailing squadron.

Hans can seem to get anything to work out for him. I dunno how he does it, and I don't have his patience to keep mucking around with these rudders.

And now for something completely different! The Goudgeon 32 fits your bill well! Superior room, only 8' wide and 32' long, it carries weight well and is fast. It is self righting but they are hard to find because only about twelve were made.

My second choice would be a Mystere 6.0 - my last one weighed just over 410# - the later ones are much lighter than the early ones! My Hobie 18 was 405# - class minimum is 400# and with the longer wings they are around 450# and the wings add alot of drag in wavy conditions (without extra weight from camping gear). I used to think my Hobie 18 handled Lake Erie windy conditions well too, until I got the Mystere 6.0 and found out how much better it could be! A Nacra 6.0 would be a good choice also and they are more numerous I think than the Mystere 6.0s. As others have advised, try to get something with lots of buoyancy in the hulls and have fun!

Are the Gougeon 32 _self_ righting ? I always was under the impression that you had to work quite a bit to right it. Also, sailing it in bad weather might be quite a handful.

Nice review of the 32' at http://www.southwindssailing.com/articles/0102/goug0102.html

Getting a boat with lots of bouancy and centerboards would be nice. Have a chat with Gary about a righting system and reefing. Install large portholes for storage in the hulls and off you go.

The Mystere 5.5 has just as bouyant hulls in slightly smaller and lighter boat. I have a M6.0 and it's great for camping and it's a very dry boat as compared to anything else I seen.

Have Fun
Mike

My wife and I recently completed the watertribe's lake michigan challenge on a H21sc. 285NM around the top of the mitten from Oscoda on Lake Huron to Manistee on Lake Michigan. A spectacular experience!

This was our first multiday trip on the boat and so was somewhat of a shakedown cruise. Conditions were upwind for 4 of the 5 1/2 days with the last 3 days beating into 1-6 foot chop, winds 5-25+ kts. Bareheaded with dbl reefed main at the high end. We sailed past midnight on several days.

We found the boat to be sturdy and predicatble and appreciated the designed-in features for multiday cruising. Reefing/furling systems, storage, mast float, etc. No major surprises or disappointments. Wings provide a reasonably dry ride without trapezing.

We have easily righted the boat in calm conditions with 2 of us, without utilizing the shroud extenders and have had success in same conditions singlehanded (200 lbs) with a righting pole, again, no shroud extenders.

I have launched the boat singlehanded (w/beachwheels, no gear) on several occasions, but retrieving typically takes 3 or 2 plus some mechanical advantage system to negotiate berm, uneven ground, etc. The boat is too heavy for most crews of 2 to run onto the beach and drag up without wheels.

Criticisms of the boat:
A little more complex than it needs to be in terms of design and fittings.
A nose diver going into steep chop. I don't have experience on the newer higher buoyancy designs but I have to believe this could be improved. Slows, but doesn't prevent upwind ability.
Pointing ability, acceptable, but was hoping for better.

George VS