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Re: Cowes [Re: Isotope235] #235879
08/08/11 04:11 PM
08/08/11 04:11 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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This is a great video to illustrate the tacking and right of way rules.

My experience is that sailors believe that so long as they get their boat around onto starboard that they have tacked and the burden is now on port. (period end of story)

They forget that they have to give room and opportunity to port (B) to avoid them. They don't instantly receive a get out of jail free card by sitting there on starboard. (Back in the day... you would see sailors grab the boom and push it to starboard and holler starboard (ha ha....) The rules have changed ...

What I see is similar to Eric..... Port (B) went into max avoid while starboard (A) had no rights and was tacking. This avoid collision was before starboard would have acquired rights... They (A) acquire rights on starboard ONLY AFTER the room and opportunity to avoid a collision requirement is met.

I look at the video and see that Port could do nothing more (The fleet knows that the boats don't bear off... the bows dig with rig that far forward and the rudders come out of the water and stall.... game over)

Room and Opportunity is the key phrase here... Looking at the video... do you think that port was not doing all they could to avoid the collision? Do you think they were late to respond.... IE after (A) is now sitting there on starboard with Port (B) missing their opportunity to avoid a collision.

Starboard (A) took a chance that they would complete the tack and get moving AND that port had room and opportunity to avoid.... They screwed up on both factors.

Imagine the protest without the video or witness's (who's accounts as to time and distance will certainly differ)


crac.sailregattas.com
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Re: Cowes [Re: Isotope235] #235883
08/08/11 04:20 PM
08/08/11 04:20 PM
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pgp Offline
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by pgp
You shouldn't come flying in on port unless you are absolutely certain of yourself.
You have that backwards. You shouldn't tack in front of an oncoming boat unless you can complete your tack and then give him room to keep clear.


I did not understand the rule then, and I doubt that anyone does.

Port tackers will now be completely out of control, using the fact of a collision to prove they were in the right.

I don't doubt this was a good rule at 6 knots...

Last edited by pgp; 08/08/11 04:21 PM.

Pete Pollard
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Re: Cowes [Re: catman] #235885
08/08/11 04:31 PM
08/08/11 04:31 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
It's been a long time for me and the rule book but really, the leading boat at a mark rounding needs to leave room to a boat thats clearly behind with no overlap and on port?


This was not a finish....

The trade off was made between the game you remember and the goal of avoiding collisions in the current game. You have to pay attention to the evolution of the game.

Had B been right on A's hip... Would you have said that A was winning?



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Cowes [Re: catman] #235886
08/08/11 04:34 PM
08/08/11 04:34 PM
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by catman
Eric, it would seem that the leading boat has no rights while rounding the mark. It's been a long time for me and the rule book but really, the leading boat at a mark rounding needs to leave room to a boat thats clearly behind with no overlap and on port?
Rule 18.2(c) states "...if either boat passes head to wind..., rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply. Although Artemis may have been entitled to mark room upon entering the zone, she lost that privilege (along with right-of-way) when she tacked. The rules have been this way for over a decade. I'd suggest giving the rule book another read.

Quote
I'm not sure I'd want to race with these rules.
Nevertheless, these are the rules we are racing under. People may hate to acknowledge it, but there are restrictions on the actions of right-of-way boats. In fact there is only one page of rules on right-of-way and four pages of rules that limit right-of-way.

And yes, there are situations where the keep-clear boat has tactical control over the right-of-way boat. This is one of them.

Regards,
Eric

Last edited by Isotope42; 08/08/11 04:54 PM.
Re: Cowes [Re: pgp] #235888
08/08/11 04:53 PM
08/08/11 04:53 PM
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I'm continually impressed with the way the rules are written for two reasons:
  1. I haven't found any contradictions, and
  2. there is almost no way to force a foul on another boat. You have to really stretch to find a scenerio where a boat breaks a rule without having done something wrong herself.

Originally Posted by pgp
I did not understand the rule then, and I doubt that anyone does.
I disagree. I believe most racers who try to understand the rules, do. Just realize that right-of-way does not bestow impunity.

Quote
Port tackers will now be completely out of control, using the fact of a collision to prove they were in the right.
I think that's untrue and overly dramatic.

Quote
I don't doubt this was a good rule at 6 knots...
It's a good rule at 6 knots or 60. Either way, you can't turn right in front of someone, cause a collision, and then claim it's their fault.

Sincerely,
Eric
US Sailing Certified Judge
Member Area D Appeals Committee

Re: Cowes [Re: Isotope235] #235889
08/08/11 04:59 PM
08/08/11 04:59 PM
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pgp Offline
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The last time I was at Juana's I was hit bow on by a port tacker trying to force his way through a line of starboard tack boats.

Don't get me started on bargers at the start line...

You have the credentials, you're opinion will win out.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Cowes [Re: Mark Schneider] #235890
08/08/11 05:01 PM
08/08/11 05:01 PM
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Lost in Translation Offline
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The jury found for GER but it doesn't make sense to me.

I agree that boats have to give others room and opportunity but still see that GE was at fault given the significant amount of time A gave GE to see its actions.

I believe this crash would not have happened had the windward mark not been within a couple of boatlengths of Artemis. From what I could see, Artemis was ahead and to leeward. Artemis tacked and was clearly moving forward on starboard. A appeared to need to travel one or two boatlengths to round the windward mark. Rule 18 applies in this situation as I understand that the zone is now 3 boatlengths.

GE had two options: it could attempt a bear away as it did unsuccessfully and keep to the tightest racing or it could luff up, crash tack, and possibly hit the mark or have to jibe around to make the mark. GE was coming into the mark on port and likely within the three boat length circle.

Many racers, independent of being on X40s or Melges or what have you have hit boats just like this because they didn't want to tack inside and not make the windward mark. It was good racing but it didn't work out. At this level of professional sailing, it seems to me GE should have avoided even if it meant not sailing their preferred course. Of course, doing so could lead to additional complications as the courses are close to land and A would soon be bearing down on them after rounding the mark.

Maybe the jury is sending a message to keep things simple and safe on the water.


Re: Cowes [Re: Isotope235] #235891
08/08/11 05:03 PM
08/08/11 05:03 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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I would add... It is much better to think about these situations at home... with a beer ... and the rule book... and the catamaran cheat sheet rather then REACT to what you think or remember with a boat under your control at 12 knots.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Cowes [Re: Mark Schneider] #235892
08/08/11 05:06 PM
08/08/11 05:06 PM
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>I look at the video and see that Port could do nothing more (The fleet knows that the boats don't bear off... <

Isn't this the second time we observe a bear away collision?
Someday we may see low stall rudder shape change?

Looks like the main traveler was eased.
Could the main sheet have been released?
Perhaps the main sheet prevented the traveler from going out further?
Why was the jib released at the 18 sec?


Re: Cowes [Re: Isotope235] #235893
08/08/11 05:06 PM
08/08/11 05:06 PM
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We had the exact same thing happen to us at the F18 worlds (we were the port tack boat).
They were going to file a protest but didnt do so in time, wasnt too happy about it since I think we had a good case for a protest.
IMO when tacking you just have to keep clear, mark rounding or not...

Re: Cowes [Re: Isotope235] #235894
08/08/11 05:13 PM
08/08/11 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
] Rule 18.2(c) states "...if either boat passes head to wind..., rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply. Although Artemis may have been entitled to mark room upon entering the zone, she lost that privilege (along with right-of-way) when she tacked. The rules have been this way for over a decade. I'd suggest giving the rule book another read.


Eric, isn't the rule quoted above in the context of the full 18.2 (c) rule?

18.2c
When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b), she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a new overlap begins. However, if the boat entitled to mark- room passes head to wind or leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply.

I don't see the version of 18 (c) that you cite in the 2009-2012 rule book with 2010 changes.

I believe Boat A that tacks with the zone onto starboard has right of way over boat B that enters the zone on port after Boat A completes its tack, correct?

Re: Cowes [Re: Lost in Translation] #235895
08/08/11 05:18 PM
08/08/11 05:18 PM
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I guess I'm hung up on the meaning of "opportunity" to keep clear. Had I been sailing GE, I would have simply eased the main, that, imo, would have slowed me down enough to avoid the collision.

Am I right in assuming that you don't have to slow down even if it is the only way to avoid a collision?

Last edited by pgp; 08/08/11 05:19 PM.

Pete Pollard
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Re: Cowes [Re: pgp] #235896
08/08/11 05:27 PM
08/08/11 05:27 PM
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Re: Cowes [Re: waterbug_wpb] #235897
08/08/11 05:54 PM
08/08/11 05:54 PM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
You're right, it looks like they need bigger rudders, and don't dump the jib if you're trying to bear away...


I just noticed that and was about to post about it...yeah, they did dump the jib while the skipper was trying to bear away. That didn't help at all.


Jake Kohl
Re: Cowes [Re: Lost in Translation] #235898
08/08/11 05:55 PM
08/08/11 05:55 PM
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Lost in Translation
I agree that boats have to give others room and opportunity but still see that GE was at fault given the significant amount of time A gave GE to see its actions.
What significant amount of time? The video shows 4 seconds of boats sailing parallel courses, 2 seconds of Artemis going head-to-wind, 6 seconds of Artemis tacking, and 1 second (at most) of Artemis on starboard tack before contact.

For the first 6 seconds, Artemis has right-of-way and Groupe Edmond keeps clear. For the next 6 seconds, Groupe Edmond has right-of-way and spends 5 of the 6 taking avoiding action. Artemis did not keep clear. Artemis may have regained right-of-way for the last second, but there is no way that she gave Groupe Edmond room to keep clear.

Quote
I believe this crash would not have happened had the windward mark not been within a couple of boatlengths of Artemis. Rule 18 applies in this situation...
Artemis was not entitled to mark room under rule 18.2(b) once she passed head-to-wind. See rule 18.2(c). Therefore, the mark being nearby is irrelevant.

Quote
GE had two options: it could attempt a bear away as it did unsuccessfully and keep to the tightest racing or it could luff up, crash tack, and possibly hit the mark or have to jibe around to make the mark.
Yes, GE could have crash-tacked instead. Crash-tacking is not a seamanlike maneuver and could have been just as dangerous as a failed bear-away. Either way, Artemis did not keep clear. Artemis had two legal options. She could have slowed down, let Groupe Edmond pass, and tack behind, or keep going until GE tacked and then tack herself. I don't think she was close enough to luff GE up.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Cowes [Re: ksurfer2] #235899
08/08/11 05:59 PM
08/08/11 05:59 PM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by ksurfer2
I hate to say it, but I think I agree with Pete on this one. It appears to me that Artemis had completed its tack and was on starboard with their sails drawing. Maybe I am not seeing it right or do not clearly understand how the rules apply here.

Shouldn't GE have anticipated that Artemis would be taking on the layline and prepared for the duck that was coming?


No rule requires you to anticipate what the other boat may or may not do....but yeah, probably.


Jake Kohl
Re: Cowes [Re: Isotope235] #235900
08/08/11 06:01 PM
08/08/11 06:01 PM
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pgp Offline
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Why isn't GE obliged to slow down?


Pete Pollard
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'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Cowes [Re: Mark Schneider] #235901
08/08/11 06:05 PM
08/08/11 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
It is much better to think about these situations at home... rather then REACT to what you think or remember with a boat under your control at 12 knots.

Excellent point. That's exactly why we need to have these discussions here. Then we'll know what to do when we get into similar incidents out on the racecourse. I'm kind of surprised that noone has yet asked how Artemis could have avoided this situation.

What Team Artemis should have done, was pinch up before she got near the mark, and scrape Groupe Edmond off at the bouy.

Know the rules, forsee a problem coming, and plan to aovid the situation before it forms.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Cowes [Re: pgp] #235902
08/08/11 06:07 PM
08/08/11 06:07 PM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
I guess I'm hung up on the meaning of "opportunity" to keep clear. Had I been sailing GE, I would have simply eased the main, that, imo, would have slowed me down enough to avoid the collision.

Am I right in assuming that you don't have to slow down even if it is the only way to avoid a collision?


It's a hydraulic mainsheet system...it eases sloooowly. Ask Nigel Pitt. He said it was scary how slowly the mainsheet system would bleed down when you hit the valve.

A lot of you are really getting caught up that this happened near a mark but it really doesn't have much to do with it because both boats are entering the zone on port. The rules apply in the same way they would in open water. If Artemis had entered the zone on starboard and GE came in port, the rules would be very very clear and GE (not entitled to room due to tacking inside the zone) would be at fault.


Jake Kohl
Re: Cowes [Re: Jake] #235903
08/08/11 06:10 PM
08/08/11 06:10 PM
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pgp Offline
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Ahhh... This seems to be a case of GE being dead right.


Pete Pollard
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'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

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