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Bimare Javelin not good in upwind? #236556
08/20/11 02:08 AM
08/20/11 02:08 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 43
where the wind never blows
Lockenfisch Offline OP
newbie
Lockenfisch  Offline OP
newbie

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 43
where the wind never blows
Hi,
a sailing mate of mine recently bought that boat (four years old) and up to now we were not able to find the right setup to make it run good and fast upwind or highly upwind. We are not sure wether the boat doesn't like two crew or we have made mistakes by putting it together like mast rake or the right forestag tension or so. Starts to be frustrating when you feel the boat working under the wind load but not moving light and quickly as the 100kg let one expect to do so.

That Javelin has the twister rigging and no jib.

Another thing is the fully open carbon mast with the small rope for the main inside. Is there a solution to seal the mast and have the rope inside?

Many thanks for your help.

Last edited by Lockenfisch; 08/20/11 02:09 AM.
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Re: Bimare Javelin not good in upwind? [Re: Lockenfisch] #236561
08/20/11 09:01 AM
08/20/11 09:01 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,119
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,119
Northfield Mn
I would think the halyard would be running through a tube, and the only thing that would flood in a capsize would be that tube. Though I do not know that for certain. It would make sense.


I'm boatless.
Re: Bimare Javelin not good in upwind? [Re: Lockenfisch] #236564
08/20/11 03:33 PM
08/20/11 03:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Smiths_Cat  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Hi Lockenfisch,

I have a Javelin 16 too. The old one with the vertical (not inverted) stem. I still have the original Bimare (Petrucci?) sail. I have fiberfoam battens, but don't ask me about the gauge.
In the begining I had some problems with going upwind too. But now I can sail higher than nearly everything in our bay.

The mast should have a top sealing with a small plastic tube where the rope goes through. The mast is open at the lower end and at the upper diamond wire attachements. However if you flip the mast will (well, should) not submerge to the diamonds. I never turteled. Check the sealing some birds liked to eat mine mad

So how do I go upwind? (single handed)
As there is no jib you can have the shroud and forstays tension low, it will have no influence. I have the tension quite low, as you will find on many a-cats.
I set the mast rake to keep the weather helm small upwind, but I thought I wasn't slower with more rake.
By the way I exchanged the the top single forstay (it was originally 2.5mm) with a double dynema line and the shrouds with -I think- 4mm (or 3mm) wire and the forestays with 3mm wire. Trap lines are dynema. If you sail regular double handed with spi downwind, both hiking, you need stronger shrouds. And the 2.5mm upper forstay is a joke in my eyes. Maybe it works in Italy, but not in northern Europe. I use a special Wichard HT steel shackle for the stay to mast attchement. My shroud wires are slightly shorter and are connected with some very short dynema lines to the shackle. I try to make a picture next time. The idea is that only dynema goes to the shackle. (I dont want to have wire and line going to the shackel, either line or wire). I replace the dynema stay stuff every year and the shackles if there is wear or bending.
Apart from that the mast is rock solid. Same for the hulls. Boat flipped over once on land in a storm and hit my steel box. I had a dent in the box and nothing on the boat. But avoid seting the boat on a hard surface or pebbles, the sandwich core is soft.

Back to trimming:
Be sure do have enough tension on the diamonds (I have 27 on the Loos gauge). The spreader rake is fix on my boat and is 78mm.
In light and medium winds, I tension the top battens high to have enough camber. The sail stalls then from the middle and lower part.
I need quite a lot of sheet and downhaul tension and the mast rotation should point at the end of the rear beam. I think my key finding was to rotate the mast in enough and to have the top battens tensioned enough. I guess the sail is a bit to full. Well, at least I would like to have a flatter sail, but I sail a lot single handed. For me it was really helpful to read a-cat trimming guides and not F16/F18 guides.
You have to trim the bows down. I stay at the front beam in lighter winds. People looking from the beach told me that my boat rocks less in waves than the Tornado of my friend. If you trim too much aft the boat starts rocking and slows down a lot.

The boards create a lot of lift, so maybe drop the traveller a bit, if you want to go a bit faster. But again this could be a single hander effect.

Be sure that the gennaker halyard is not too tight, so that the mast is hold by the forestay and not the halyard (important for mast bending).

What else?
You need to work the sheet a lot.
Try to sail without gennaker to see the pure upwind performance. (it is still a rocket downwind if doing the wild think but much more scary)
I found that you should not have more than 140kg crew weight to avoid pitch poling in strong winds. It is a fantastic single hander and still fine if you don't overload. It is perfect for me and my wife or me alone. It is actually the best cat I have sailed so far. But it took me one year to get an idea how to trim and run the boat. So keep on trying. Once you managed it will reward you a lot.
Only drawback is that it is very difficult to launch through surf and flat water with on-shore winds (with the the stock ruder system).

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Klaus

Re: Bimare Javelin not good in upwind? [Re: Smiths_Cat] #236577
08/21/11 03:18 AM
08/21/11 03:18 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 43
where the wind never blows
Lockenfisch Offline OP
newbie
Lockenfisch  Offline OP
newbie

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 43
where the wind never blows
Moinsen Klaus,

many thanks for your full statement!

This last Friday we were happy to have enough wind in our continental area. 4Bft and more made us pitchpole one time on a very cool full power downwind racing. Not aware of the mast issue we weren't quick enough to prevent the jav to point the mast down to the ground. It needed all our power and weight to bring the boat out of that position and then right it with (still?) having water in the mast. Is there a tube in the mast or did you place it there? I just saw his mast top with a white foam cover someone made a cut inside and thought a pre-owner had to do s.th. with the main halyard there.

The guy just bought the boat some weeks ago and it was in three hands before so I already thought that it needs patience and a sensitive hand to perform well.

We will try out your advices and what I can say so far after reading your comment is that we for sure had too much tension on the shrouds and on the twister halyard. The top battens propably are too lose as well.

Do you have the twister/gennacker as well? How do you manage to furl it properly while sailing? The upper area never furls in nicely so a very annoying flap-flap noise makes it hard to sail on relaxed.

Up to here thank you again for your input. I will give your advice to him. Its not my boat but in heavier conditions that guy who is not yet so expierienced asks me for help or being crew or helm. And I like to be on his boat because downwind it already runs like "Smith's Cat" *g*.


lg Uli

Last edited by Lockenfisch; 08/21/11 03:20 AM.
Re: Bimare Javelin not good in upwind? [Re: Lockenfisch] #236581
08/21/11 06:54 AM
08/21/11 06:54 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Smiths_Cat  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Moin Uli,

I got the boat second hand as well, but I guess the tube was factory made. It is a must have, as you have noticed already.

I have the furling gennaker as well. I really like it, because you can use it at light wind on a close reach. To make it run, the halyard should be tensioned not too light. Unfurling is easy and always works. Furling works best if the sheets are eased and the sail is blown 90 degrees to the side. It must be furled with constant speed and not too fast. If you have a problem let it out again, sail deeper and furl it again even slower, once you got it it is a no brainer.
In this video at about 7:35, you can see how slowly and carefully my wife is furling the sail.
Some pictures:
[img]http://catsailor.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastupby&cat=0&pos=2[/img]

[img]http://catsailor.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastupby&cat=0&pos=1[/img]

[img]http://catsailor.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastupby&cat=0&pos=0[/img]

This is my old setup. It was 1:3 purchase (not 3:1). If you pull one 1cm it pulls 3cm of the furler line. The idea was not to have so much slack line from the drum on tramp or in the water, if the sail is furled. It worked, but took longer to rig, so I went back to the simple system. The red furler line is a dynema rope. I removed the cover on the first 1m so it is thiner and more spare line can be on the drum, so I never end up with furling the sail tighter than last time and lack line on the drum for the last two or three turns. If furled, I just bunch up the line and put it under the front of the foot strap. I like simple solutions. If the line is long enough you can knot its end to rear beam. You can unfurl and furl from the back of the boat, a big advantage in strong winds.

Notice also the white plastic ring in the picture. It holds the furler drum upright. It is a homebuild solution from the last owner. The drum is (if I remember correctly) from Harken. Not sure if this the original one.

Cheers,

Klaus

Last edited by Smiths_Cat; 08/21/11 06:58 AM.
Re: Bimare Javelin not good in upwind? [Re: Smiths_Cat] #236582
08/21/11 06:59 AM
08/21/11 06:59 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
addict
Smiths_Cat  Offline
addict

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
and I have no clue why this picture stuff is not working...

Re: Bimare Javelin not good in upwind? [Re: Smiths_Cat] #236604
08/22/11 12:35 AM
08/22/11 12:35 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 43
where the wind never blows
Lockenfisch Offline OP
newbie
Lockenfisch  Offline OP
newbie

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 43
where the wind never blows
Moin Moin Klaus,

i've seen that you have stopper knots in the fore sail halyard. Is that for having a fixed position for each course? Can they pass thru the cleat?



Bye Uli

btw: In your pic links is nothing to go to. The ending should look like: http://catsailor.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=140&pos=4

Re: Bimare Javelin not good in upwind? [Re: Lockenfisch] #236608
08/22/11 06:39 AM
08/22/11 06:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Smiths_Cat  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Moin Uli,

the knots are the result of trial and error. Hopefully they don't slip through the cleat. I can lower the gennaker just that the boom doesn't slip from the pintle. When single handed I have to drop the gennaker before I can right the boat. Wouldn't be nice to drop it and the pole slips from the pintle on the water.
Usually I adjust the halyard tension once on land not on the water unless it is totally wrong.

Cheers,

Klaus


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