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Re: Racing Situation... [Re: HMurphey] #236696
08/22/11 09:14 PM
08/22/11 09:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by HMurphey
In your origonal statement you claim to be approximently (2) boatlengths ahead .... but the drawing DOES NOT show that ... but if it is true ...

Then you'll reach the "zone" around the mark first .... remember it is a "snap-shot" ... that means no-one else will have inside overlap rights .... SOooooo ... at the point you enter the zone you need to hail LOUDLY ... NO INSIDE OVERLAP ... NO ROOM AT THE MARK ... and defend you position and do the sweetest best rounding you have ever done ....

Nooowww .... if "grey" gets to the zone first ... you'll be in trouble ... then stay alittle wide at first ... let them pass in front ... and see if they "slide" over alittle bit as they have to do a much harder/sharper turn/rounding ... which may slow them down ... you maybe able to accelerate inside of them, passing between the mark and them ... and then roll them w/ you greater boatspeed ...


This rounding takes superior boat handling skills ... in either case

Harry Murphey
H18Mag/P19MX


coming in on opposite gybes, there is no way to clear that overlap before they get to the zone because of the angles of the lines used to determine overlap. So, grey will have to get there and get around the mark before anyone can require room - otherwise, he owes all three of them room.


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Jake] #236698
08/22/11 10:35 PM
08/22/11 10:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by HMurphey
In your origonal statement you claim to be approximently (2) boatlengths ahead .... but the drawing DOES NOT show that ... but if it is true ...

Then you'll reach the "zone" around the mark first .... remember it is a "snap-shot" ... that means no-one else will have inside overlap rights .... SOooooo ... at the point you enter the zone you need to hail LOUDLY ... NO INSIDE OVERLAP ... NO ROOM AT THE MARK ... and defend you position and do the sweetest best rounding you have ever done ....

Nooowww .... if "grey" gets to the zone first ... you'll be in trouble ... then stay alittle wide at first ... let them pass in front ... and see if they "slide" over alittle bit as they have to do a much harder/sharper turn/rounding ... which may slow them down ... you maybe able to accelerate inside of them, passing between the mark and them ... and then roll them w/ you greater boatspeed ...


This rounding takes superior boat handling skills ... in either case

Harry Murphey
H18Mag/P19MX


coming in on opposite gybes, there is no way to clear that overlap before they get to the zone because of the angles of the lines used to determine overlap. So, grey will have to get there and get around the mark before anyone can require room - otherwise, he owes all three of them room.


Harry you're wrong in your assessment about shutting out the boats coming in on starboard. When blue get's to the circle any boat that is overlapped is entitled to room regardless what tack are on, or where they are in relationship to the circle.

Jake you meant to say blue not grey, right?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

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Re: Racing Situation... [Re: David Ingram] #236699
08/22/11 10:39 PM
08/22/11 10:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Yeah...meant blue not grey.


Jake Kohl
Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Jake] #236705
08/23/11 05:37 AM
08/23/11 05:37 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
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SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
If Grey and the other boats ARE NOT in the "zone" when blue reaches the zone .... then they have no Overlap/Inside Rights. It's a "snap shot" .... not a continious video. Now "Grey" may retain her Starboard Rights ... but if Grey enters the "Zone" AFTER "Blue" ... NO RIGHTS ....

Now if "Grey" reachs the "zone" first .... well then yes ... "Blue" will have to give them all mark rounding room ... since they (all three) appear to be overlaping each other. But if their overlaps is broken before entering the zone ... then they lose their "Inside/Mark" Rights .... "Grey" will most definately have "Inside/Mark Rights since she is in front of a line extending from "Blue's" transom ....

This is a VERY tight situation ... where a second or two will amke the difference ....

Harry

Re: Racing Situation... [Re: HMurphey] #236708
08/23/11 06:07 AM
08/23/11 06:07 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Originally Posted by HMurphey
If Grey and the other boats ARE NOT in the "zone" when blue reaches the zone .... then they have no Overlap/Inside Rights. It's a "snap shot" .... not a continious video. Now "Grey" may retain her Starboard Rights ... but if Grey enters the "Zone" AFTER "Blue" ... NO RIGHTS ....

Now if "Grey" reachs the "zone" first .... well then yes ... "Blue" will have to give them all mark rounding room ... since they (all three) appear to be overlaping each other. But if their overlaps is broken before entering the zone ... then they lose their "Inside/Mark" Rights .... "Grey" will most definately have "Inside/Mark Rights since she is in front of a line extending from "Blue's" transom ....

This is a VERY tight situation ... where a second or two will amke the difference ....

Harry


Wrong; very very wrong.

The overlap has existed as soon as Blue went onto Port and the others were on Stbd. The point where Room is decided is when the first boat (Blue) gets to the circle; at which point she MAY have to give room to ANYONE who has an overlap. Remember ther "overlap" is defined by a line across the transom. IF Blue were leading the race; she is overlaps with every boat to the right (in the diagram) of the line accross her transoms.

The obligation on Blue startes at the circle when BLUE gets there; it does not matter where anyone else is.

Blue is in potential big trouble and really only has 2 plans

1, If wind is light and may be able to twin string with the kite up it might be smart to sail deeper and then "allow" the boats to gybe in side with the hope that they all DO gybe and then sail out under them with more speed

2, Stall the kite; slow down; let the others sail on front (JUST) and thus prevent them gybing directly in front and then getting above them as they sort their gybes out.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Isotope235] #236712
08/23/11 07:21 AM
08/23/11 07:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Jake
All this reaching finish does is spread out the boats making the actual finishing of boats further apart.

That is probably the actual purpose of the reach leg. It spreads the boats out a bit, and exposes the sail numbers better - making it easier for Race Committee to take finishes.


With all the tech they're using I doubt they need to see sail #'s at the finish.


Have Fun
Re: Racing Situation... [Re: scooby_simon] #236715
08/23/11 08:22 AM
08/23/11 08:22 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by scooby_simon
The obligation on Blue startes at the circle when BLUE gets there; it does not matter where anyone else is.

I don't mean to single you out, but there have been several mis-statements so far, and this post seemed like a good starting point.

To begin with, Rule 18 applies between boats when at least one of them is in the zone (RRS 18.1). If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat mark-room (RRS 18.2(b)). It is not necessary for both boats to be in the zone, only the boat closer to the mark. The obligation to give mark-room under rule 18.2(b) begins when the first boat reaches the zone and does not end until the boat entitled to mark-room has passed the mark, left the zone, or passed head-to-wind.

The rules are applied between pairs of boats. When three or more boats meet, you need to examine the relationships between a boat and other boats individually, and separately determine the obligations for each pair. In this example, the initial relationships are:
  • Gray is on the same tack and overlapped to leeward of both Green and Yellow. Gray is on opposite tacks with Blue with Gray on starboard tack. Gray is not required to keep clear of any of the other boats.
  • Green is overlapped on the same tack as Gray and Yellow. She is windward of Gray and leeward of Yellow. Green is on opposite tacks with Blue with Green on starboard tack. Green must keep clear of Gray.
  • Yellow is overlapped on the same tack as Gray and Green. She is windward of both. Yellow is on opposite tacks with Blue with Yellow on starboard tack. Yellow must keep clear of both Gray and Green.
  • Blue is on opposite tacks with Gray, Green, and Yellow, with Blue on port tack. Blue must keep clear of Gray, Green, and Yellow.

Inspecting the diagram, Gray is just over three boatlengths from the mark. Assuming that the sailing instructions have not changed the size of the zone, rule 18 does not yet apply. Gray is, however, on the verge of entering the zone. As soon as she does, not only will she be the right-of-way boat, but the other three will owe her mark-room. No rule dictates when Gray must gybe, but if I think her best course of action would be to make a wide-entry, smooth, momentum-retaining gybe inside the zone, passing right under the mark. That way, she exits as fast as possible, and prevents any boats from getting to windward for the short reach to the finish.

Green's best tactic in the absence of Blue, would be to drive Yellow past the layline to the mark, so that after gybing, she is ahead. If she can get Blue to gybe away, Green will wind up ahead of both. If she goes too far, however, Blue might head up and roll her. If she gybes too soon, Blue might be able to sail through her lee. If I were Green, I think I'd gybe slightly above Blue's line, such that Yellow would be almost in front of Blue at the time. That would put the most pressure on Blue to gybe, and leave her the least room to sail above or below Yellow and Green.

Yellow doesn't have many options. Green is controlling her gybe. All she can do is gybe when Green does, or (if Green goes too far) slow down and gybe above her. She's outside the zone, so if Green gets out in front after the gybe, Yellow will not get mark-room later.

Blue is in a risky spot. Her only safe course of action is to let all the other boats go first - either by slowing way down, or gybing away. From the diagram, her chance of crossing Yellow and Green is mediocre at best. If she bears away, Yellow and Green will simply delay their gybes. If she heads up, they will gybe sooner. She stands a good chance of rolling them while they gybe though. Blue is more than a boatlength below the layline, so she has some room to maneuver. I think Blue's best bet is to shed some speed, encourage Green and Yellow to gybe right in front of her, and then head up to cross their transoms as fast as possible. Gray will likely cut Blue off at the mark, but Blue can still probably dive down to round behind her. That puts Blue in second position. If Gray makes a mistake, and passes the mark too low or too slow, then Blue might get an opportunity to roll Gray, or drive through her lee before the finish.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Isotope235] #236769
08/24/11 12:43 PM
08/24/11 12:43 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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There is definitely a time and place for a final reach to a finish. This is something that helps the RC, which in turn can help everyone. Faster, more accurate sorting of finishes (and lower probability of errors and redress hearings) is in everyone's best interest.

Think of another place you might see that type of scenario. Perhaps a B mark on a course with a reaching leg at the bottom of the course? Rules and tactics would be similar, if not identical.

Mike

Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Isotope235] #236799
08/25/11 04:37 PM
08/25/11 04:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
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scooby_simon Offline
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by scooby_simon
The obligation on Blue startes at the circle when BLUE gets there; it does not matter where anyone else is.

I don't mean to single you out, but there have been several mis-statements so far, and this post seemed like a good starting point.

To begin with, Rule 18 applies between boats when at least one of them is in the zone (RRS 18.1). If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat mark-room (RRS 18.2(b)). It is not necessary for both boats to be in the zone, only the boat closer to the mark. The obligation to give mark-room under rule 18.2(b) begins when the first boat reaches the zone and does not end until the boat entitled to mark-room has passed the mark, left the zone, or passed head-to-wind.

The rules are applied between pairs of boats. When three or more boats meet, you need to examine the relationships between a boat and other boats individually, and separately determine the obligations for each pair. In this example, the initial relationships are:
  • Gray is on the same tack and overlapped to leeward of both Green and Yellow. Gray is on opposite tacks with Blue with Gray on starboard tack. Gray is not required to keep clear of any of the other boats.
  • Green is overlapped on the same tack as Gray and Yellow. She is windward of Gray and leeward of Yellow. Green is on opposite tacks with Blue with Green on starboard tack. Green must keep clear of Gray.
  • Yellow is overlapped on the same tack as Gray and Green. She is windward of both. Yellow is on opposite tacks with Blue with Yellow on starboard tack. Yellow must keep clear of both Gray and Green.
  • Blue is on opposite tacks with Gray, Green, and Yellow, with Blue on port tack. Blue must keep clear of Gray, Green, and Yellow.

Inspecting the diagram, Gray is just over three boatlengths from the mark. Assuming that the sailing instructions have not changed the size of the zone, rule 18 does not yet apply. Gray is, however, on the verge of entering the zone. As soon as she does, not only will she be the right-of-way boat, but the other three will owe her mark-room. No rule dictates when Gray must gybe, but if I think her best course of action would be to make a wide-entry, smooth, momentum-retaining gybe inside the zone, passing right under the mark. That way, she exits as fast as possible, and prevents any boats from getting to windward for the short reach to the finish.

Green's best tactic in the absence of Blue, would be to drive Yellow past the layline to the mark, so that after gybing, she is ahead. If she can get Blue to gybe away, Green will wind up ahead of both. If she goes too far, however, Blue might head up and roll her. If she gybes too soon, Blue might be able to sail through her lee. If I were Green, I think I'd gybe slightly above Blue's line, such that Yellow would be almost in front of Blue at the time. That would put the most pressure on Blue to gybe, and leave her the least room to sail above or below Yellow and Green.

Yellow doesn't have many options. Green is controlling her gybe. All she can do is gybe when Green does, or (if Green goes too far) slow down and gybe above her. She's outside the zone, so if Green gets out in front after the gybe, Yellow will not get mark-room later.

Blue is in a risky spot. Her only safe course of action is to let all the other boats go first - either by slowing way down, or gybing away. From the diagram, her chance of crossing Yellow and Green is mediocre at best. If she bears away, Yellow and Green will simply delay their gybes. If she heads up, they will gybe sooner. She stands a good chance of rolling them while they gybe though. Blue is more than a boatlength below the layline, so she has some room to maneuver. I think Blue's best bet is to shed some speed, encourage Green and Yellow to gybe right in front of her, and then head up to cross their transoms as fast as possible. Gray will likely cut Blue off at the mark, but Blue can still probably dive down to round behind her. That puts Blue in second position. If Gray makes a mistake, and passes the mark too low or too slow, then Blue might get an opportunity to roll Gray, or drive through her lee before the finish.

Regards,
Eric


Eric; Totally agree with you; I was trying to step someone who clearly does not know the rules thru the situation one step/post at a time.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Racing Situation... [Re: brucat] #236806
08/25/11 07:14 PM
08/25/11 07:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Hillsborough, NC USA
Originally Posted by brucat
There is definitely a time and place for a final reach to a finish. This is something that helps the RC, which in turn can help everyone. Faster, more accurate sorting of finishes (and lower probability of errors and redress hearings) is in everyone's best interest.


Mike,

Well put. Normally, I dislike rules/courses made for the benefit of RC, but this can be an exception. A few years back, I was a judge at an event that was a qualifier for the Sunfish Worlds. They had a downwind finish and even with mark rounding data, the packs were too big for the finish boat to figure out all the sail numbers. It was a mess. RC wound up posting DNF scores for the boats they couldn't place and we had to ask the sailors where they finished.

Getting good finish results is one of the most important jobs of RC. A course that helps is a good thing.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Racing Situation... [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #237667
09/15/11 04:53 PM
09/15/11 04:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
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Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
I remember someone throwing a hissy fit. cry


I'd put it 5-6 notches beyond "hissy fit" and was well deserved...

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