Announcements
New Discussions
Worrell 1000 Ground Crew Finder
by John Williams. 02/18/20 06:50 PM
Bringing back the cat
by dave mosley. 02/03/20 08:12 AM
Worrell 1000
by John Williams. 01/29/20 04:38 PM
F85SR Concept Boat
by phill. 01/29/20 03:44 AM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: IndyWave] #235942
08/09/11 06:37 AM
08/09/11 06:37 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Quote
As for the rules being voted in unamimously, that would have been before the rudder/tiller change was made, so everyone had the same configuation. As the class association has grown, any new members are more likely to have the EZ-Locs. That original unanimous group may only comprise a small percentage of current membership. That's the price of success.

I do certainly respect Rick and the other founders of the IWCA, and the successful formula they have developed; but I think this discussion points out the fact that the situation has changed since those rules were written. It's time to take a look at the reality of boats being sold today, and how the IWCA can incorporate new members.

I believe you misunderstood what rules I was referring to. I was referring to the Constitutional Rules of the Class. Please go to www.WaveClass.com and read how you can change a rule about the boat. That is the rule I was referring to.
In other words, you cannot change a rudder or tiller rule on this or any other forum. We set up those early Constitutional Rules to keep order in the house.


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
--Advertisement--
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: Mugrace72] #235947
08/09/11 07:07 AM
08/09/11 07:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline
newbie

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
Originally Posted by Mugrace72

I approve of this approach and applaud Chris for soldiering along with this. Once HCA solves this issue, I think it would be almost automatic for IWCA to go along. In spite of what you may hear, most IWCA folks I have talked to will vote yes to a sensible solution. Our growth is stagnant and I think HCA is now where the new Wave interst is. We need to be national, not regional, and we need to be under one rules package. Keep up the good work guys.


Hear! Hear! I read this and had two thoughts:

1. Pretty much the Hobie way to do the engineering to come up with a solid solution. Unlike mine of a couple of pop rivets and stuff I had in my spare parts box. Its more fun when stuff doesn't keep breaking.

2. I got all excited about "one rules package". The Hobie 21 had sails from any maker, the Tiger has a spliced sort of tapered mainsheet, trampolines ... close, so close.

You guys are doing great. I think I'll go sailing.

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: RickWhite] #235948
08/09/11 07:43 AM
08/09/11 07:43 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
N
NorthernWave Offline OP
stranger
NorthernWave  Offline OP
stranger
N

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
I agree that the Rules need to be adhered to. There seems to be a little confusion as to whether proper procedure has been followed.I submitted my proposal for a Rules change to the Rules Chairman - Chip Short (chip@the-helm.com)on July 28th. I didn't receive confirmation that he received it (I didn't ask for confirmation), but I just sent another email this morning asking him to confirm receipt. If you go back to page 2 of this thread you can read the text of what I submitted. Is there anything else I need to do in order to get the membership to consider and vote on the proposal?

Don Thompson



Don Thompson
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: NorthernWave] #236073
08/10/11 12:12 PM
08/10/11 12:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Probably the best idea is attend the Nationals the first weekend in December at Chip and Barb's beach, in the Florida Keys and attend the National Meeting.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: RickWhite] #236088
08/10/11 02:04 PM
08/10/11 02:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline
newbie

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
That would guarantee another year of status quo.

b. Changes to the class rules:
i. Proposed permanent rule changes shall be submitted, by any member to the Rules Chairperson, for consideration at least 30 days prior to the annual meeting. Upon consideration of the change, the rules committee may either:
1. Recommend the change.
2. Reject the proposed change.
3. Modify the proposed change.
ii. Upon b.i.1 or b.i.3 above,
1. A Web site posting shall occur stating the proposed change, at least 15 days prior to the meeting.
2. A "YES" vote by a two-thirds votes of the membership present, providing there is a quorum, including absentee ballots and proxy votes at the annual meeting shall be sufficient to change the class rule.
3. To take effect on March 1st of the following year.

The submission to the Rules Chairperson has, if we can believe Don, been done. More than thirty days to the Nationals. How long will it take to convene a rules committee and discuss the proposed change? If the general membership is to be consulted, then quite a while. How many people are expected to be at the Nationals? How many people are in the IWCA and therefore eligible to vote?

The proposed rules changes have to be posted on the web, presumably here, by mid November. All those people that care enough to vote have to make travel arrangements or get their proxy or absentee ballot to somebody who is going in order to vote.

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: BigWhoop] #236115
08/11/11 06:52 AM
08/11/11 06:52 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
The way we have always had a quorum is on how we structured the dues and the time of renewing. See below:
e. Membership is for one (1) fiscal year (Nov 15 -Nov 14) , and dues shall be set for the next year at the previous annual meeting by a simple vote. If there is no quorum to vote, dues shall remain the same as the prior year's level. Only Wave owners may hold office or be on the rules committee.
That way, most folks come to the Nationals and pay their dues, so everyone is there and paid up.
Otherwise you can send your dues to Skip Kaub, our Secretary
Secretary:
Skip Kaub, Indianapolis, IN
Skip@inquisitiveeye.com


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: RickWhite] #236126
08/11/11 07:47 AM
08/11/11 07:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline
newbie

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
One more try. Then I'm done.

"Only Wave owners may hold office or be on the rules committee." I presume you meant only IWCA members ..."

"That way, most folks come to the Nationals and pay their dues, so everyone is there and paid up." Not everyone Rick. But if the IWCA has 40 members total, a guess but I have asked and got no answer, then their memberships all expire on 15 November. So the twenty people who turn up for the Nationals are those who get to vote and the rest of us can ... well whatever.

So the general membership can debate and discuss on this forum and come to a consensus, of sorts, as to what should happen, about tiller extensions or pink anodized rear crossmembers or whatever, and then their memberships expire and a dozen people who go to the Nationals and attend the meeting vote and decide? Maybe you could ask those people who are voting whether their boats have EZ-Locs. Bet you there aren't three.

At any rate here are the questions, again, about the politics of getting tiller extensions approved:

How long will it take to convene a rules committee and discuss the proposed change? How many people are expected to be at the Nationals? How many people are in the IWCA and therefore eligible to vote?

The bylaws contain:

4. Meetings:
a. At least one annual meeting shall be held on the first night of the US Nationals. In the absence of a US Nationals, the meeting will be held at the discretion of the class president.
i. Special meetings may be held from time to time and can be done electronically with 15 days notice (web site posting).

and:

5. Committees
a. Rules committee - Shall consist of a Rules chairman, Chief measurer, and an Event coordinator.
i. The purpose of this committee:
1. Is to monitor the class rules.
2. Propose rule changes to the membership, as they feel necessary.
3. Solicit national and international event locations.
4. Make temporary rule changes as the situation arises.

So if we, meaning the IWCA membership, wanted to we could promulgate the rules changes, already done by Don; have an electronic vote; and then the Rules Committee could make a temporary rules change and people could try out the tiller extension without fear of being protested.

Charles Smith
IWCA Member
Sail Number 103 "Sploosh" (named by my granddaughter)




Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: BigWhoop] #236149
08/11/11 09:52 AM
08/11/11 09:52 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
J
jackbr549 Offline
journeyman
jackbr549  Offline
journeyman
J

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
BigWhoop
You can bring any stock Wave to IWCA races and race. The hobie sails and now the rudder system on the Wave have been inconsistent over the years because of changes by Hobie. That is why IWCA allows all sail makers to build sails and get measured in. I will go with the folw on the tiller extension but it should be on what ever type of rudder system you have.

Last edited by jackbr549; 08/11/11 11:43 AM.
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: jackbr549] #236176
08/11/11 01:51 PM
08/11/11 01:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
There has not really been a debate on this Forum. You and a few others have given opionions, but you have not heard any debate.
On the negative side for you, A tiller extension will help the big people also get farther forward. Think about it. Just one point. So, as in Lincoln/Douglas both side should be presented, and then voted upon.
At any rate, I don't think this is any emergency rule change that has to be made. Apparently you do.


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: BigWhoop] #236182
08/11/11 02:54 PM
08/11/11 02:54 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand
Mugrace72  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Originally Posted by BigWhoop
"Only Wave owners may hold office or be on the rules committee." I presume you meant only IWCA members ..."

So the twenty people who turn up for the Nationals are those who get to vote and the rest of us can ... well whatever.



The problem here is that only 4 or 5 IWCA paid members ever vist this forum.

Dues are only collected at the nationals and so it would be very difficult to comply with the bylaws unless you are at the nationals.

I'm not sure if it was intended to be this way, but the bottom line is that any rule change proposal is doomed by the way the rules are written.

Having said that, and earlier in this discussion, the future of the Wave class is in the hands of HCA-NA, not IWCA.

IWCA folks, for the most part, are quite happy with the status quo.

HCA has the responsibility to evaluate and institute rules that equalize inequities that arise from the Hobie Cat Company changing specifications. Once HCA has made such a rule adjustment, it would likely follow that IWCA would do the same.



Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: Mugrace72] #236497
08/18/11 10:48 PM
08/18/11 10:48 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
My understanding is that the Hobie sails have settled down and haven't had significant changes in many, many years.

The current "need" to have an open sail rule is really about sailor weight, as I understand it.

Matt (Miller)?

Mike

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: brucat] #236820
08/26/11 10:58 AM
08/26/11 10:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
Quote
My understanding is that the Hobie sails have settled down and haven't had significant changes in many, many years.

The current "need" to have an open sail rule is really about sailor weight, as I understand it.


I always find that one to be pretty funny. It is something used to argue the idea of open sail maker use on the Wave... The fact is, the Wave sail design has NEVER changed since day one. Slight variations in production may have occured, but we never made changes to shape or patterns.

Using some slight inconsistency in our production as an excuse to make much more dramatic changes in shape due to a personal desire always strikes me as absurd. It is what it is... some guys want to buy more power for an edge when racing and sail makers are happy to get their toe in the door.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: mmiller] #236848
08/27/11 06:34 AM
08/27/11 06:34 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
We have measured as much as 8 inches differences in luffs. Not sure why.


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: RickWhite] #236865
08/28/11 01:20 PM
08/28/11 01:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
J
jackbr549 Offline
journeyman
jackbr549  Offline
journeyman
J

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
Rick is correct, the 17 sails were almost never the same from year to year and the new one was always a little bigger. Strange!

Last edited by jackbr549; 08/28/11 07:58 PM.
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: jackbr549] #236891
08/29/11 10:12 AM
08/29/11 10:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
Quote
We have measured as much as 8 inches differences in luffs. Not sure why.


It is very common for the luff rope to bunch up and "shrink" the luff length. You would have to measure under downhaul loads. Newer sails would then appear to be longer. Depending on the luff rope material used it may have been more prominent at some time over the years. You can not simply lay one on top of another and compare.

We are not talking about H17 sails here, but same applies. Actually more so. Mylar shrinks over time. That combined with the luff rope issue makes comparison difficult.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: mmiller] #236898
08/29/11 11:57 AM
08/29/11 11:57 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
J
jackbr549 Offline
journeyman
jackbr549  Offline
journeyman
J

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 61
Albenarle NC
I now have a 1999 hobie 17 that weighs 329lbs and have had at least 4 others in the past weighing up to 365 lbs. All anyone wants is everything to be equal and let the sailing do the talking.

Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: jackbr549] #236904
08/29/11 12:36 PM
08/29/11 12:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
IndyWave Offline
enthusiast
IndyWave  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
Originally Posted by jackbr549
All anyone wants is everything to be equal and let the sailing do the talking.


This is exactly why the tiller extension proposal was made, to bring things back to equality.


What - Me Worry?


2006 Hobie Wave 7358
"Ish Kabibble"
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: IndyWave] #236910
08/29/11 01:44 PM
08/29/11 01:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
BigWhoop Offline
newbie
BigWhoop  Offline
newbie

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 41
Ottawa, Canada
Speaking of which ...

6. Amendments:
....
b. Changes to the class rules:
i. Proposed permanent rule changes shall be submitted, by any member to the Rules Chairperson, for consideration at least 30 days prior to the annual meeting. Upon consideration of the change, the rules committee may either:
1. Recommend the change.
2. Reject the proposed change.
3. Modify the proposed change.
ii. Upon b.i.1 or b.i.3 above,
1. A Web site posting shall occur stating the proposed change, at least 15 days prior to the meeting.
2. A "YES" vote by a two-thirds votes of the membership present, providing there is a quorum, including absentee ballots and proxy votes at the annual meeting shall be sufficient to change the class rule.
3. To take effect on March 1st of the following year.

Were are we with this proposal? You know ... the proposal that is the topic of this thread? Rules Chairperson? Rules Committee?


Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: BigWhoop] #236967
08/30/11 01:40 PM
08/30/11 01:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
I have not heard of any proposal being submitted yet.


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Proposal for a Rules change to allow tiller extensions [Re: RickWhite] #236986
08/30/11 09:41 PM
08/30/11 09:41 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
N
NorthernWave Offline OP
stranger
NorthernWave  Offline OP
stranger
N

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 20
Ottawa, Ontario
Come on Rick, I submitted my proposal some time ago to the Rules Chairman listed on the IWCA website - Chip Short. chip@the-helm.com
But really, if you read back earlier in this thread, I already said that I submitted it and who I submitted it to. Is this a real class association or are we just playing some kind of a game? I have prepared and submitted a proposal for a rules change in accordance with the Rules of the organization because I believe it is in the best interest of furthering Wave racing. If you are interested in having the proposal considered by the membership, in accordance with the Rules, please tell me who I should submit it to, if not the person listed on the IWCA website.


Don Thompson
Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
1 registered members (Damon Linkous), 50 guests, and 334 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
wgilmour, Jacob7876, Wozza, kvc0615, CaptainAhab
8007 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
phill 1
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,375
Posts266,972
Members8,007
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1