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What do you get for min weight? #237583
09/14/11 11:59 AM
09/14/11 11:59 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bobcat Offline OP
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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
The argument is raging again about building to minimum weight. I am finding out that what you get is like the engine in a dragster. Built for one fast run.

My 2006 Blade is on its third set of rudders. The heads keep splitting. The first time I ever went on a screaming two up jib reach a dagger broke (we weren't even trapping).

Now, I have a deck flexing so bad it has completely let go at the dagger board trunk. This is a boat that has been sailed predominately single handed on a lake by a 180 pounder. Both hulls have 4 foot long cracks between the trunk and the rear beam approximately 4 inches down the sides . Cracked outside, cracked inside, I am sure the foam is cracked too.

I removed the deck and found that the only thing supporting it's span was the trunk. There was a 1 inch gap between the foam laminated into the deck and the hull sides. This left a couple thin layers of glass to deal with the transition from thick to thin. There were no bulkheads in this area of the hull. Only a couple of loose fitting foam blocks between the hull and trunk. Removing the tramp track showed where the glue securing it had failed as there were many screw holes that had seriously elongated

So, an 180 person is able to break down the boat sailing it on a lake from June to September in only 5 years. I am seriously dissapointed in these major mechanical failures. This boat has never been in a collision and has never run aground.

I don't have the heart to try to sell this to someone. I sailed a 1977 Nacra for many years and a club member is still sailing it. I cannot imagine what a Blade will look like in 34 years.

So build to minimum weight. Enjoy your one fast run. Then sell it. Quick.

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Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: bobcat] #237584
09/14/11 12:14 PM
09/14/11 12:14 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

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West coast of Norway
Sorry to hear about your problems! Really!

Now I would believe there is more to the story? Like you got a boat from the first batch of boats built, or there have been some severe drama? Plenty of evidence of other boats built to min weight holding up.

Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #237586
09/14/11 12:30 PM
09/14/11 12:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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No problems so far with my '06. I did have a rudder head open but I just drilled a few holes, squirted in some epoxy and it's still good.

I'm 230.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #237588
09/14/11 12:39 PM
09/14/11 12:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bobcat Offline OP
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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
If by drama you mean trauma, I was wanting to lay it out that there has been no extra ordinary stress on the boat. It has never been double trapezed. In fact, it is probably the opposite. I probably spend more time sitting on the boat than trapezing. The jib has been put on the boat about 5 times now.
This boat has never cartwheeled. I have never needed assistance righting. It has been trailered once (by the beams).

This has never been a dry boat. Since day one it has taken water into both hulls while sailing.

When you sail a potato chip I guess you gotta expect a few cracks.

Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: bobcat] #237597
09/14/11 02:11 PM
09/14/11 02:11 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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Orlando, FL
I had de-lamination issues with the original rudders (they were part carbon part fiber/gelcoat) ... they looked really cool ... Matt replaced both under warranty -- to fiber/gelcoat boards. I haven't had a problem with any of the newer foils. I haven't experienced any of the other problems mentioned.



USA 777
Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: bobcat] #237598
09/14/11 02:55 PM
09/14/11 02:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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Maryland
There are 3 - 2007 Blades that get sailed hard April - October every year. Also a 2006 that joined this year. All are still going strong. Also an earlier Taipan from the first batch that came over as F16s that is sailed just as much and is prestine. My 2009 boat is at 112kgs and is built like a rock.

Sounds like you have an outlyer to me.



Kris Hathaway
Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: Kris Hathaway] #237609
09/14/11 08:31 PM
09/14/11 08:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 264
Long Island, NY
gregP19 Offline
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Long Island, NY
I sail my 2007 blade pretty hard (or maybe into hard things). I hit a rock on a fast reach that tore open the port daggerboard trunk. On another occasion I hit a sandbar double trapped in 18knots a few seconds after I said "Ready About". The dammage was all my fault and Matt was there for me to send me the parts I needed and to advise on the correct repairs. My Blade had been a solid boat so far.I'm sorry you've had a bad experience with your boat.


G Gove Blade #728 Long Island, New Yawk
Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: bobcat] #237613
09/14/11 09:36 PM
09/14/11 09:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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PTP  Offline
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Michigan
I have not had any problems with my boat 2007/2008 Hulls (after one issue which was dealt with under warranty with no problems). I would like to say I sail the boat a lot, but unfortunately I don't.
I am not sure the boat will be around in 34 years either, but I think it is worth it.

Last edited by PTP; 09/14/11 09:37 PM.
Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: PTP] #237661
09/15/11 02:45 PM
09/15/11 02:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Hamburg
I would recommend to contact the builder.
On my boat (2004) cleats and blocks of a well known company start to fail, because we sail hard, but not the boat.


Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: Smiths_Cat] #237671
09/15/11 06:27 PM
09/15/11 06:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bobcat Offline OP
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Yeah, I kinda hoping to let the manufacturer know about the lifetime expectations of his product. Attached pic shows the crack running just below the anti-skid. I have one just like this on the other hull too.
Built on a Monday?

Attached Files
DSC02499-4.JPG (592 downloads)
Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: bobcat] #237688
09/16/11 06:20 AM
09/16/11 06:20 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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West coast of Norway
First version of a new design, built on a morning on friday the 13th under a ladder with black cats all around?

I would guess your boat is one of the first ones built and what you experience is theeting problems on the building process. Clearly a manufacturer issue if that is the case. Really sorry to hear about your problems! Hopefully there is a good way to implement the improved solutions used on later boats on your boat.


Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #237704
09/16/11 09:29 AM
09/16/11 09:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bobcat Offline OP
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bobcat  Offline OP
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Thanks Rolf. I have contemplated that, wondering if newer decks fit the opening better. But I am afraid that thicker foam and different layups probably won't be very easy to implement.

Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: bobcat] #237706
09/16/11 09:52 AM
09/16/11 09:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2
unleaded Offline
stranger
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Posts: 2
We got a new deck plate and it fit.

Apparently the structural design of the daggerboard case was not sufficient to handle a submerged duckblind impact at 12 knots.

The structure has withstood many 2-up 18 knot pitchpole tests, but testing is ongoing. Crew have also suffered minor structural damage.

I have one of the Alter Cup boats. Seroiusly,the deck inserts could have been stronger, and now they are. The original ones cracked where the core ended and the flange began. The new one looks much better.

We love the boat. The light weight is greatly appreciated 99% of the time on the water and 100% of the time off the water.

-colin


Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: bobcat] #237738
09/16/11 05:20 PM
09/16/11 05:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe
I too am sorry to hear about your boat.

Sounds indeed like a introduction series warranty issue to me too.

I hope this all gets sorted out.

Regards,

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: Wouter] #237746
09/16/11 07:03 PM
09/16/11 07:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bobcat Offline OP
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bobcat  Offline OP
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Sometimes I feel that my Blade entered the Dead Boat Society when it was about 2 years old.

This arose from VectorWorks dropping the product line and Falcon Marine creating their own boat.

Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: bobcat] #237762
09/17/11 05:50 AM
09/17/11 05:50 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

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West coast of Norway
That was a pessimistic view on it in my opinion. Your boat is still very much competitive in the F16 class.

Vectorworks is still in business so any claims should be possible to present for them? My sympathies for being between a rock and a hard place due to business decisions out of your control.
I am not afraid to whip out the skilsaw, epoxy and glass so I would get into fixing any issues myself when/if warranty expired. Perhaps you could do something similar, or have some connections able to teach you?

Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #237766
09/17/11 08:36 AM
09/17/11 08:36 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bobcat Offline OP
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bobcat  Offline OP
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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Allow me some pessimism in my dark moments.

The picture attached above shows the boat with its deck removed. I have already created 4 bulkheads that I am bogging into the boat that will hopefully support the flex deck and carry loads across the flex hull.

Perhaps another pic will be ready by Monday.

On the warranty issue, I really don't know where I stand. There never was a written warranty.

Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: bobcat] #237767
09/17/11 08:48 AM
09/17/11 08:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
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Does your boat have kevlar in the hulls?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: pgp] #237771
09/17/11 11:41 AM
09/17/11 11:41 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Even though it is small comfort.. It is most often easier to repair an existing boat than to build a new one.

I have no clue about customer rights in the USA but I would at least have a chat with Vectorworks. If warranty have expired, you might get insight into the later models and the improvements done there. That would make any improvements easier to implement I think.

Re: What do you get for min weight? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #237791
09/18/11 08:58 PM
09/18/11 08:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bobcat Offline OP
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bobcat  Offline OP
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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
I am still hoping to have a chance for that discussion with a Vectorworks representative past or present.

Does anybody have any form of written warranty from Vectorworks that they can copy for me?

I see that Falcon Marine still has the Blade on their website. I wonder if they took the future liabilities when they took the tooling.

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