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What are your expectations? #238237
09/23/11 09:06 AM
09/23/11 09:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bobcat Offline OP
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With new boats getting lighter and skins getting thinner, how long do you expect a new boat to last before it is ready for the bin?

Let me caveat that. Routine maintenance followed, boat not overloaded, etc.



F16 Blade 716
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Re: What are your expectations? [Re: bobcat] #238238
09/23/11 09:15 AM
09/23/11 09:15 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

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20+ years.

Re: What are your expectations? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #238239
09/23/11 09:59 AM
09/23/11 09:59 AM
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pgp Offline
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+1 But I sail mine accordingly. I've never seen the point of pitchpoling just to show you have a pair.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: What are your expectations? [Re: pgp] #238240
09/23/11 10:03 AM
09/23/11 10:03 AM
Joined: May 2003
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Finding the limits of performance demands a few rather abrupt stops you know smile

But boats should be handle pitchpoles and capsizes without major trauma. Bowsprit, snuffers, sails and other accessories might be damaged, but the platform itself should handle this in my opinion.

Re: What are your expectations? [Re: bobcat] #238241
09/23/11 10:05 AM
09/23/11 10:05 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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At least 10 year, but more with same attenion to maintenance.

I don't think it has much to do with the overall weight of the boat and more with the skill level and quality control of the guy and company actually building the boat at a given weight.

I've seen rather new 182 kg F18's split on the hull during normal sailing and i've seen 102 kg taipan 4,9's survive many years of hard use.

I think your problem has alot more to do with the batch your boat came from then the specs of the F16 boats in general. Mine F16 is the same weight as yours and doesn't have a single problem since 2004 when it first sailed. And things do get rough overhere on the north sea.

Last edited by Wouter; 09/23/11 10:08 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: What are your expectations? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #238242
09/23/11 10:13 AM
09/23/11 10:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
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orphan Offline
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Daytona Beach Florida
Depends on what your are willing to spend and what your expectations are(and money does not alway equate to reliability)? For everyone it is different. How many days you spend on the water, how you sail the boat, conditions you sail, how you store the boat, even how you trailer the boat. And what you expect to not have to replace. Even the tornado guys replace things like beams, tramps, rigging, etc. If you want a tank the buy a tank. If you want a sports car then buy a sport car and understand it is a sports car. If you expect something to last for a set time better put it under glass and never use it because Sh*t Happens. And when it does you fix it.

Re: What are your expectations? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #238244
09/23/11 10:16 AM
09/23/11 10:16 AM
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pgp Offline
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
Finding the limits of performance demands a few rather abrupt stops you know smile

But boats should be handle pitchpoles and capsizes without major trauma. Bowsprit, snuffers, sails and other accessories might be damaged, but the platform itself should handle this in my opinion.


I'm satisfied with my downwind and can only recall one pitch pole from driving too hard. Sailing to weather is a whole different story... cry


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: What are your expectations? [Re: orphan] #238245
09/23/11 10:20 AM
09/23/11 10:20 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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I dont expect to replace the platform itself + mast unless I run the boat aground or something similar. Sails, rigging, trampoline etc. are all things that needs regular replacement in my opinion.
The olympic Tornado beams replaced beams becouse the believed they became softer after x->N number of cyclic loads when sailing. Not proven as far as I know, but re-seating the beams usually makes the boat stiffer. Marström tornados built after 1986 lasts virtually forever btw.

The question as I understand it is not how long the boat is top competitive but how long you can sail it if usage is "normal". I totally expect this to be 20+ years.

Re: What are your expectations? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #238247
09/23/11 10:54 AM
09/23/11 10:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bobcat Offline OP
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Quote
The question as I understand it is not how long the boat is top competitive but how long you can sail it if usage is "normal". I totally expect this to be 20+ years.


Exactly. Sure the Laser guys buy a new sail every regatta, a new mast a couple times a year, and a new boat every season, but none of the "old" stuff goes into the trash.

I am fairly isolated here. I was not aware that knees, elbows, ankle bones, etc could dimple a boat. A bit of any eye opener. I had a dimple on my boat before it ever got on the water. There were no other boats around me that were this tender. So I was wondering if I was being introduced to another fact of life.



F16 Blade 716
Re: What are your expectations? [Re: bobcat] #238261
09/23/11 12:50 PM
09/23/11 12:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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I expect from a boat to last long, and be reasonable tough to withstand dimples from knees etc. My boat fulfils those expectations, as nearly all other qualitiy build beach cats. My boat is even 10kg below F16 min weight and I will rather dimple my knee than my boat. Hulls are from glass btw. I do not throw stones on it, but I don't treat it as a woman as well.

If you really think that from the other Laser "stuff" nothing goes to the trash, than you live in a parallel world...

Re: What are your expectations? [Re: bobcat] #238262
09/23/11 12:52 PM
09/23/11 12:52 PM

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Originally Posted by bobcat
I was not aware that knees, elbows, ankle bones, etc could dimple a boat. A bit of any eye opener. I had a dimple on my boat before it ever got on the water. There were no other boats around me that were this tender. So I was wondering if I was being introduced to another fact of life.

Pretty common I think across classes and builders. I've heard similar complaints about some F18s. Obviously lighter boats present greater challenges. Another reason to treat boats with care.

Re: What are your expectations? [Re: Smiths_Cat] #238264
09/23/11 01:58 PM
09/23/11 01:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bobcat Offline OP
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Quote
My boat is even 10kg below F16 min weight and I will rather dimple my knee than my boat.


That is the Bimare Javelin?

Quote
If you really think that from the other Laser "stuff" nothing goes to the trash, than you live in a parallel world...


Perhaps you misunderstood. I was trying to separate out the difference between top level competitiveness and ready for the bin. I doubt that Olympic level Laser sailors throw out their hulls regularly due to slightly worn mast steps. They sell them down the fleet.



F16 Blade 716
Re: What are your expectations? [Re: bobcat] #238271
09/23/11 04:57 PM
09/23/11 04:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 98
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
WillLints Offline
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"I was not aware that knees, elbows, ankle bones, etc could dimple a boat."

BobCat, are your hulls kevlar skinned? I think Kevlar gives way easier but is not as likely to fracture as glass.


Will_Lints
one-up, Blade 706, epoxy bottoms
Re: What are your expectations? [Re: WillLints] #238272
09/23/11 05:23 PM
09/23/11 05:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bobcat Offline OP
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No, I didn't get the Kevlar option. I would hate to see my boat in Kevlar if that is true.



F16 Blade 716
Re: What are your expectations? [Re: bobcat] #238278
09/23/11 10:18 PM
09/23/11 10:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 98
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
WillLints Offline
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Is the glass cracked where the dimples are and do you fill in the dimples?


Will_Lints
one-up, Blade 706, epoxy bottoms
Re: What are your expectations? [Re: WillLints] #238286
09/24/11 07:02 AM
09/24/11 07:02 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bobcat Offline OP
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Nope no cracks.
Yes, I have done some fairing.



F16 Blade 716
Re: What are your expectations? [Re: bobcat] #238293
09/24/11 01:25 PM
09/24/11 01:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 98
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
WillLints Offline
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WillLints  Offline
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I wonder if you could have wound up with the up-grade even though you didn’t pay for it? Maybe, because they were so behind on shipping their orders they decided to send you the Kevlars just to keep you happy?


Will_Lints
one-up, Blade 706, epoxy bottoms
Re: What are your expectations? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #238539
10/03/11 11:32 AM
10/03/11 11:32 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
The question as I understand it is not how long the boat is top competitive but how long you can sail it if usage is "normal".


Interesting comment, Rolf. What, in your opinion, would make a well-built boat lose it's competitive stature - assuming no major changes in design within that product line?

Let's propose a hypothetical situation: Two identical F-16 boats, one 10 years old and one new. Both with new sails and rigging. What would make the older one less competitive?


Jay

Re: What are your expectations? [Re: waterbug_wpb] #238549
10/03/11 01:22 PM
10/03/11 01:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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I'm sure Rolf will answer with his views - and they're always worth listening to - but I'd like to suggest a few....

The older boat can be expected to be less rigid (stiff), have some scuffs and scrapes, possibly be less watertight, have wear in the plate cases and rudder fittings etc.

All of these factors will impact on boatspeed - energy is 'lost' and not transferred into driving the boat forward efficiently. Of course ALL of these can also be addressed and the boat returned to 'good as new' condition and be on a par with, or better than, the newer boat.

Finally, the older boat may, if it has suffered from leaks or damage and repair, be heavier than the newer boat - assuming both were built to the same weight. This disadvantage cannot be readily dealt with and is something that any buyer of a used boat should be aware of when seeking out new (to them) ride.


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: What are your expectations? [Re: waterbug_wpb] #238551
10/03/11 03:27 PM
10/03/11 03:27 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb


Let's propose a hypothetical situation: Two identical F-16 boats, one 10 years old and one new. Both with new sails and rigging. What would make the older one less competitive?


The sailor!






Changes in hullform/rig

Construction methods

Seriously though, while listening to the wind, rain and enjoying that our current +5degC temperature stays outdoors..

A well built boat will be competitive at 10 years of age. A boat not designed for a 10+ year competitive life will be more flexible loosing speed. Pretty much all structures will flex and over time loose stiffness. If the flex becomes pronounced, you can even experience material fatigue and material failure.
Repairs will over time add weight and more flexibility.
Humidity goes into the sandwich, adding weight.
Store outdoors in wet weather, add weight.
Mount beams improperly and add flex.

Basically it can be summed up with increased flex, increased weight and design changes in hullform/rig/appendages/fittings/lines etc.

But the most important performance factor on all boats is the sailor anyway..

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