Announcements
New Discussions
Hobie 16 hull bow shroud anchor damage
by Kc2canada. 04/07/21 11:08 PM
F85SR Concept Boat
by phill. 04/03/21 08:38 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
F18 Rule Amendments 2011 #238541
10/03/11 01:25 PM
10/03/11 01:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: David Ingram] #238558
10/03/11 05:51 PM
10/03/11 05:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
old hand
rhodysail  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
Can we also mention that the North American Prescriptions have been eliminated?

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: rhodysail] #238606
10/04/11 01:11 PM
10/04/11 01:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
At the AGM the USF18 Prescriptions were voted out. Time to leave your speed pucks on the the beach.

Watch your email for the AGM meeting minutes this week.

Dave


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: David Ingram] #238695
10/06/11 10:13 AM
10/06/11 10:13 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 297
R
rexdenton Offline
enthusiast
rexdenton  Offline
enthusiast
R

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 297
Dave, Seriously? No GPS? Please confirm.


Nacra F18 #856
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: rexdenton] #238705
10/06/11 12:36 PM
10/06/11 12:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
I'm not surprised - the straw poll in Racine was pretty heavily in favor of devices that display time and heading, but not speed. That pretty much knocks out anything with a GPS in it.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: John Williams] #238706
10/06/11 12:49 PM
10/06/11 12:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 129
Austin, TX
BoK Offline
member
BoK  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 129
Austin, TX
Hmmm, as I remember the meeting in Racine, the question was display of VMG not speed.


Bo Kersey
Corsair 31-1D 276
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: BoK] #238709
10/06/11 02:50 PM
10/06/11 02:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
O
orphan Offline
enthusiast
orphan  Offline
enthusiast
O

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
You can disable speed on the speedpuck. Still not allowed?

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: BoK] #238732
10/07/11 07:55 AM
10/07/11 07:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by BoK
Hmmm, as I remember the meeting in Racine, the question was display of VMG not speed.


John is correct. Time and heading is what was expressed by the straw poll.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: rexdenton] #238733
10/07/11 07:59 AM
10/07/11 07:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by rexdenton
Dave, Seriously? No GPS? Please confirm.


Yes Seriously, please refer to the class rules regarding the use of GPS enabled devices. They are permitted for distance/adventure races but not buoy.

Wording regarding the use of GPS enabled devices was submitted by the technical committee over a year ago but I have seen no action by the IF18CA to rule one way or the other. Now you know all I know.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: orphan] #238734
10/07/11 08:05 AM
10/07/11 08:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by orphan
You can disable speed on the speedpuck. Still not allowed?


Depends on if you think the "I didn't have it enabled" argument will hold up in a hearing. If you think it's solid then you can use your disabled GPS device, if you don't think the argument will hold up in the room then you'll be leaving it on the beach. Of course your results may vary depending on who is hearing the protest. If you get a hard butt like me you'll get flicked.



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: David Ingram] #238748
10/07/11 09:45 AM
10/07/11 09:45 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
old hand
S

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
This seems like a silly issue. VMG is nice, particularly on a super long course where you may not see the top mark, but really this requires you sailing the course and grabbing those mark points. In my experience, you don't have time in a bouy race to worry about GPS data if the breeze is up.

My point being, I have GPS equipment for distance racing that would work fine for around the buoys. I don't own a $400 TackTick. Should I? Yes, but since that is the only non-GPS enabled device on the market that gives you heading, is this really a fair rule? IMO, no, it is simply forcing people to buy one manufacturers product...


Scorpion F18
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: David Ingram] #238752
10/07/11 10:00 AM
10/07/11 10:00 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 297
R
rexdenton Offline
enthusiast
rexdenton  Offline
enthusiast
R

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 297
From a compliance/regulatory capacity, absolute mandates are better for both the adjudicators and the participants. With Compasses that can have the GPS/VMG/Speed turned off, a de facto mixed standard for compliance is created, if the rule language is vaguely described.

I'd be happier if the rule language is black or white, (no wiggle room). They are or they are not legal.

Also, I can only find 2010 rules. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place for the 2011 rules. The amendments don't mention anything about GPS as far as I can see. I remain confused as to what represents the status quo, (and have been now for about a year).

Last edited by rexdenton; 10/07/11 10:01 AM.

Nacra F18 #856
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: rexdenton] #238755
10/07/11 10:11 AM
10/07/11 10:11 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes
Sloansailing Offline
member
Sloansailing  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes
The speedpuck doesn't give you heading, it gives you COG. This is a function of GPS. So, even with the speed turned off the COG function of the speedpuck is still using GPS data. So is this not allowed?


Anacortes Rigging.com
Rigging and Yacht Services
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: Sloansailing] #238757
10/07/11 10:19 AM
10/07/11 10:19 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes
Sloansailing Offline
member
Sloansailing  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes
Just checked the rules and by my estimation Speedpucks are not allowed at all, as they receive data for both speed (SOG) and "heading" (COG). (Rule C.5.1-b-3)

Last edited by Sloansailing; 10/07/11 10:19 AM.

Anacortes Rigging.com
Rigging and Yacht Services
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: Sloansailing] #238758
10/07/11 10:34 AM
10/07/11 10:34 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
addict
Dlennard  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
If F18 is trying to save cost it does not seem so with having to buy the more expensive compass only. I guess none of the boats at the NA's were legal with all of them having the tracking devices?

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: rexdenton] #238759
10/07/11 10:36 AM
10/07/11 10:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
What we have to go by is what is on the IF18CA website:

Rules Download Page

Yes, the rules need some work and the good news is their is a working committee scrubbing the rules right now. Replacing things that have been inadvertently dropped, clarifying the unclear....

Now I'm not guaranteeing there still won't be questions once the scrub is done, I'm sure this will be an iterative process. From what I've been told it's pretty common for class rules to get a little "inaccurate" when the rules move to the ISAF format. Bottom line is it's being addressed.

Sam as far as your comments go, the class prescriptions covered the Speed Puck and the class voted to drop the prescriptions. Fair or unfair, like or don't like, the USF18 class has made it's desire known on the issue.

Rex as far is the GPS issue being unclear... don't agree but that is just me.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: Dlennard] #238760
10/07/11 10:37 AM
10/07/11 10:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Dlennard
If F18 is trying to save cost it does not seem so with having to buy the more expensive compass only. I guess none of the boats at the NA's were legal with all of them having the tracking devices?


Good point Dave, and an issue that was brought up at the Worlds last year. I'm confident the tracking devices can be easily handled.

Last edited by David Ingram; 10/07/11 10:42 AM.

David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: David Ingram] #238762
10/07/11 11:06 AM
10/07/11 11:06 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes
Sloansailing Offline
member
Sloansailing  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Dlennard
If F18 is trying to save cost it does not seem so with having to buy the more expensive compass only. I guess none of the boats at the NA's were legal with all of them having the tracking devices?


Good point Dave, and an issue that was brought up at the Worlds last year. I'm confident the tracking devices can be easily handled.


Just drop "for long distance courses" from Rule C.5.1-b-4 and its done. Allowed or required by NOR...


Anacortes Rigging.com
Rigging and Yacht Services
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: Sloansailing] #238768
10/07/11 12:27 PM
10/07/11 12:27 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 297
R
rexdenton Offline
enthusiast
rexdenton  Offline
enthusiast
R

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 297
Under the 2010 C5, any GPS technically 'receives data' in the form of satellite fix. By the strictest interpretation any GPS is not compliant.

Is this correct?

If this is not correct, the rule is unclear.


Nacra F18 #856
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: rexdenton] #238771
10/07/11 01:10 PM
10/07/11 01:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Rex, by the strictest interpretation any GPS enabled device is not compliant, and yes that is how I read it. But, I'm just another competitor just like you, I have no authority in how the rules are interpreted.

As sloansailing pointed out, if the three words "long distance courses" were struck the issue could be handled at the event level. I want to remind everyone again, the USF18 class voted to drop the prescriptions which dropped the ability to use the Speedpuck so... there are more than a few that are okay with the no GPS rule.

C.5.1 FOR USE
(a) MANDATORY
(1) One righting line, minimum 4 metres long and 10 mm minimum
diameter.
(2) One magnetic steering compass.
(b) OPTIONAL
(1) Magnetic compasses.
(2) Mechanical timing devices. Mechanical wind indicators.
(3) Electronic devices that provide timing, heading, and heading
memory but which do not transmit or receive data.
(4) When required by the Notice of Race for long distance courses,
organisers may require further equipment, such as VHF, mobile
phone, GPS or tracking devices, Emergency Positioning Indicating
radio beacons (EPIRB) devices, knife, mirror, whistle, flares,
flashlights, first aid set.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 25 guests, and 201 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Kc2canada, rodbarman, StrayCatMarine, jpc25, scottsonnierboats
8099 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
phill 1
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,386
Posts267,023
Members8,099
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1