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Pretty wild N20 capsize. #238827
10/10/11 05:54 AM
10/10/11 05:54 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
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evansdb78 Offline OP
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evansdb78  Offline OP
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Bacardi Columbus Day Regatta on Biscayne bay.




-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: evansdb78] #238830
10/10/11 06:34 AM
10/10/11 06:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline
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tampa, fl
I know it was flat nukin' in Tampa over the weekend, I can imagine how windy it was on Biscayne Bay. That was a day I would have opted to sit on the beach and enjoy a cold one. Props for the effort!!!!!!! Glad everyone and everything made it back in one piece.


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: ksurfer2] #238831
10/10/11 06:41 AM
10/10/11 06:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Might I ask - what happened to your boom?

Its seems to have not made onto the boat smile

Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: ThunderMuffin] #238832
10/10/11 06:47 AM
10/10/11 06:47 AM
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Posts: 2,584
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Tony_F18 Offline
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The jib clew seems disconnected as well...

Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: ThunderMuffin] #238834
10/10/11 07:19 AM
10/10/11 07:19 AM
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Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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I'm not sure why folks are saying the boom isn't there, I see it. It also looks like before the capsize you're running with the traveler somewhat in with the sheet bagged out. I would have dumped the traveler more earlier and maybe not as much sheet. The rig looked a little loose from what the headstay was doing, tighten up for big wind, also rake the mast back for a day like that. I have found sometimes that cranking the jib in (oversheeting it) can help stall out the main if you're looking to slow down. But, if you're going downwind, speed is often your best friend.

Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: Tony_F18] #238836
10/10/11 07:38 AM
10/10/11 07:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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I saw the boom. right after the capsize

I'm sure most of ya'll have been there... reaching deep in heavy air you're left with two options: Drive down further and hope for the best, or bang the boat upwind and hope for the best as you cross that "death reach" angle

It does look like that traveler is somewhat centered prior to the pitch. Perhaps releasing that almost to the stops while rounding up would allow the boat to turn upwind through "the zone" a bit better? But I suspect that you may have to fight the jib a little since it's not completely "off".

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 10/10/11 07:45 AM.

Jay

Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: ThunderMuffin] #238837
10/10/11 07:39 AM
10/10/11 07:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Undecided
Might I ask - what happened to your boom?

Its seems to have not made onto the boat smile


The boom is there.

Nice video...although, I'm not a fan of slow motion in sailing videos - the angle is good and it really shows the kind of crazy wind you guys were in.

Dude...those are just knarly conditions and you pretty much count on a capsize or two in that kind of wind. Those clouds looked pretty tough and the rain is going to obscure any chance of seeing pressure changes and shifts on the water. Just look at the righting you guys made with the sails down....the boat still almost went back over the other way. That was just simply a lot of wind and aggressive Biscayne Bay chop. It's really tough to take sails down on the water - it's pretty messy and tough on the sails and the sailors (getting them reeled in through the water and wind)...but it works in a pinch. I would only do that as a last ditch effort - which looks like what you were doing there.

You might consider keeping a drift sock on a 20 foot leash on the boat that you can clip to the forestay and toss off the bow when the boat is capsized. This will drag the bows into the wind and hopefully keep them there when you right the boat to prevent it from spinning and flipping immediately.

One note about your boat setup - boards should be up about halfway when sailing downwind under all conditions. In those conditions, raise them up so only about 10 to 12" of the board are in the water under the hull. That might have given the boat less incentive to round up when you stuffed but it's still no guarantee. re; mainsheet length, your main was already mostly against the shrouds so you weren't going to ease it much more without risking damage to the battens. It does look like the traveler could go out a little more but I don't think it would have made much difference. It was just very windy!

Last - no sunglasses or goggles!? Probably should have been wearing a diving mask and snorkel at the rate water was coming over the deck (it's been done before).




Jake Kohl
Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: Jake] #238838
10/10/11 07:44 AM
10/10/11 07:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Ok, I went through the rest of the video and I see it at the end.

Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: Keith] #238839
10/10/11 07:47 AM
10/10/11 07:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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Looks like you did almost everything right and still flipped. I've been there done that plenty. Sometimes the force of the wind is greater than the weight on the boat to counteract it.

Pull your boards halfway next time. It will keep the boat from wanting to trip as much.

Nice job staying back and working as hard as you could to keep it up. I saw that you were so deep that the jib would lose air sometimes. And you were hauling butt.


Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: ThunderMuffin] #238840
10/10/11 07:53 AM
10/10/11 07:53 AM

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MN3
Unregistered
MN3
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M



wowwwie woow woooo
gnarly! I sailed friday but opted to take my mast down sat morning as it was blowing 17-30 by 11 am and expecting heavier air.

Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: Keith] #238841
10/10/11 07:56 AM
10/10/11 07:56 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 32
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evansdb78 Offline OP
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Keith the traveler was in early on but by the time we went in I had it all the way out. That pretty much answers my questions about the jib, spin, and main sheet. I'm sure I'll have more to follow. I'll tighten the rig also.

Not so worried about the jib trim in those conditions. The jib was back and forth on it's track when I took it deep, as in wing n' wing. So I don't think it was doing much.

The jib clew was disconnected after we were in the water, as was the main halyard. We had a good amount of downhaul on. The boom is there maybe try watching in full screen.

Thanks for the tips!!

Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: evansdb78] #238844
10/10/11 08:27 AM
10/10/11 08:27 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
sail7seas Offline
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FL
Howling winds (40), four capsizes, typical Biscayne bay chop, and sailing with someone you can trust in these testing conditions, priceless. Columbus Day Regatta, Coral Reef YC, 96 registered from 20 to 40+ footers, and started at NW end of Biscayne bay. It was a cloudy day with moderate winds and seemed comfortable enough (hook), maybe the weather forecast was wrong. We started right on time at 10:55a GPS time, down to a buoy to far. A Stiletto 23 was windward of us on Port tack, and we gradually put distance on them (gage). Twenty minutes later We gibed on to starboard, and then it started to rain. With visibility about 50 feet we were now flying/sailing by GPS, and it was time to jibe back to Port and give us a safe distance from the shore, just in case. It was either at this time the squall hit or Hans did not S jibe, and we capsized. It was definitely a surprise, but Hans and know the drill and easily righted the Hobie 20 with the help of wind. While we were capsized the Stiletto 23 came over to check us out to make sure everyone was Ok, and thank you guys. Interestingly the Hobie 20 went over rather slowly compared to my F16.

A little disorientated now we set up to get going, and couple minutes later got blow over again. We righted the Hobie 20, and the wind blew it over the other way. OK, capsized, we sat it out for a while to let Mother Nature calm down a bit, and then righted the catamaran. Now the wind really picked up, probably the peak, and I assumed the helm and feathered the boat in the squall with the main traveler all the way out, and again waited for MN to calm down. Meanwhile the quick release on the jib sheet came off and Hans had to watch his expensive jib shred itself. Hans wanted to cut it down, but the storm was so intense at this point, I told him to wait until another lull, because it he falls off trying to cut down the jib, I would not be able to find him. With the jib down we feathered the wind toward Stiltsville, tacked and sailed/feathered our way to Hobie beach (Rickenbacher causeway).

We knew we would be overpowered under main with the rain squalls coming one after another, and would be a high risk sailing into US Sailing in Coconut Grove. This was one of the few times I have ever brought my cell phone and Hans called a friend who gave us ride to US Sailing Center, and Hans got his backup jib. So we jury rigged the jib on the mast were the main goes, and did 12 knots back to Coconut Grove. We were discussing when, where, how to get the sail down, when a huge gust tore the sail off the mast, and end of discussion. We were now doing 5knots under bare poles, entered USSC channel and roped the dock.

Attached Files
Columbus Day2011-1.JPG (232 downloads)
Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: Jake] #238850
10/10/11 10:10 AM
10/10/11 10:10 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 32
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evansdb78 Offline OP
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Jake thanks,

That's a good idea to have a drift sock. I think that would have helped keep the bows in the waves.

Boards up next time as well.

So I guess I'll leave the main sheet alone for now. Keith and you seem to be saying don't lengthen. There is no way I could have rounded up though it was so powered up if just thought about coming up. Maybe if I had the boards up that would have been different.

I felt like I had to take the sails down with the winds so high. The boat flipped from one side to the other and we weren't even hiking out to right it. I just blew the tramp enough to raise the mast and sails off the water. Then to right the boat our friend hiked out pulling on the dolphin striker. That's all it took to get it up, with out the sails.


Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: Mike Hill] #238851
10/10/11 10:19 AM
10/10/11 10:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 32
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evansdb78 Offline OP
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Mike yeah the jib was jibing constantly leading up to the capsize. Most if it I cut when I edited it. Brad did do good trying to hike at the end, and not breaking the boom when he bailed.

Thanks for the compliment.

Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: evansdb78] #238853
10/10/11 11:06 AM
10/10/11 11:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by evansdb78
Jake thanks,

That's a good idea to have a drift sock. I think that would have helped keep the bows in the waves.

Boards up next time as well.

So I guess I'll leave the main sheet alone for now. Keith and you seem to be saying don't lengthen. There is no way I could have rounded up though it was so powered up if just thought about coming up. Maybe if I had the boards up that would have been different.

I felt like I had to take the sails down with the winds so high. The boat flipped from one side to the other and we weren't even hiking out to right it. I just blew the tramp enough to raise the mast and sails off the water. Then to right the boat our friend hiked out pulling on the dolphin striker. That's all it took to get it up, with out the sails.



That was just really windy and would have happened to anyone. The trick is knowing when to say when but without even being able to round up - your options were definitely limited! Boards up would have definitely helped you turn the boat and get pointed into the wind to heave-to and wait it out. You need just enough board in the water to help the boat pivot but also will let it slip a little sideways. The boat will tend to heal on the boards (which is why they keep getting longer an longer - the idea is that the boat is capable of flying a hull sooner with long extended boards). With boards raised, that pivot point raises with them and makes the boat a little less tippy. Once your rudders are out of the water, you are just along for the ride. I really wouldn't recommend having the spinnaker up in those conditions - it just would have made the resulting crash that much more dramatic. I've waited out conditions like that by purposely turtling the boat to keep it from moving to much distance through the water and having a wet seat on the underside of the trampoline...but you should be confident that your mast is well sealed and that the water is deep enough so the mast doesn't hit bottom.


Jake Kohl
Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: Jake] #238861
10/10/11 01:33 PM
10/10/11 01:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Unfortunately, Biscayne Bay is only 10-20' deep in most places so going turtle is out of the question there, but getting the boards up will keep if from popping up the hull in the bigger gusts.

To be able to steer (to a safe beach/harbor), you have to have forward motion, so here's another option; drop the main, roll it up and sail to a beach on the jib alone. Of course you can't make upwind progress but at least you'll be able to keep the boat upright and have some steerage.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: Timbo] #238862
10/10/11 01:36 PM
10/10/11 01:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Timbo, when it's blowing 40, bare poles can get the N20 up to about 5 kts. on a close reach. Don't ask me how I know smile

It's also one of the best times to have a roller-furling jib....

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 10/10/11 01:36 PM.

Jay

Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #238864
10/10/11 02:07 PM
10/10/11 02:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Timbo, when it's blowing 40, bare poles can get the N20 up to about 5 kts. on a close reach. Don't ask me how I know smile

It's also one of the best times to have a roller-furling jib....


I had my a-cat going 11 knots on a reach with just the mast once. I could actually make a little headway to weather too.


Jake Kohl
Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #238865
10/10/11 02:07 PM
10/10/11 02:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
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The Infusion will go 14knots with just the jib. We took the main down after about 4 pitchpoles. Don't ask me how I know.

Re: Pretty wild N20 capsize. [Re: Dlennard] #238868
10/10/11 02:51 PM
10/10/11 02:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by Dlennard
Don't ask me how I know.


Does someone make that T-shirt yet?


Jay

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