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Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? #237493
09/13/11 11:17 AM
09/13/11 11:17 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5
I20sailor Offline OP
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I20sailor  Offline OP
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Sold my Nacra 20 and bought a 2007 Hobie Tiger to race with my 14 year old daughter.
So far I hate the way it steers. I keep raking the mast back and still the steering is way too neutral. Upwind I have intermittend lee helm and downwind the lee helm can get so bad that I almost push myself off the boat, especially when coming down a wave. Raising the boards downwind seems to help some, but not enough.
I can't believe this is normal. What do I have set up wrong?
Mast rake is between upper and lower gudgon on the transom. Any further back and I'll be block-to-block on the main. Rudder rake is not adjustable short of glueing in material.
Any help would be great...


Claus
2010 AHPC Capricorn #155

www.cramsailing.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? [Re: I20sailor] #237495
09/13/11 11:39 AM
09/13/11 11:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Sounds like the rudders are raked too far forward. If you rake the rudders aft a bit your lee helm should go away. Lee helm sucks, but neutral helm... after double trapped spin reaching the neutral helm is what I miss the most about the 20.



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? [Re: David Ingram] #237546
09/14/11 12:04 AM
09/14/11 12:04 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes
Sloansailing Offline
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Sloansailing  Offline
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Anacortes
I've had the same problem with my Tiger. Shim the rudders back a little, I used a piece of stick on velcro between the rudder and the cassette and that was enough to make a big difference. Prior to that I raked them back to the extreme and while it felt great in light air, in any breeze at all the boat was uncontrollable. That was a lesson!


Anacortes Rigging.com
Rigging and Yacht Services
Re: Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? [Re: Sloansailing] #237562
09/14/11 09:00 AM
09/14/11 09:00 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5
I20sailor Offline OP
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I20sailor  Offline OP
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Thanks for the input. There is already some material in the casting, but I'll try to add a bit more and see if this works. Maybe also a slight toe-in on the allignment.


Claus
2010 AHPC Capricorn #155

www.cramsailing.com
Re: Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? [Re: I20sailor] #237682
09/16/11 02:30 AM
09/16/11 02:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 36
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Gav F18 Offline
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I put some high density foam in the rudder casing to rake them back. From memory it condensed to about 3-4mm and helped a lot. I definitely knew if they'd fallen out.

I'm sailing a C2 now and I cannot describe how much more enjoyable the sailing is compared to the Tiger.

Re: Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? [Re: Gav F18] #237730
09/16/11 02:56 PM
09/16/11 02:56 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5
I20sailor Offline OP
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I20sailor  Offline OP
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Can you elaborate a bit more on what makes it so much more enjoyable? I am considering moving to something else for next season, so C1, C2, Infusion, Wildcat will all be on the list.


Claus
2010 AHPC Capricorn #155

www.cramsailing.com
Re: Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? [Re: I20sailor] #238328
09/26/11 10:04 AM
09/26/11 10:04 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
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maritimesailor Offline
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Just go look at the top ten results from the NAs. 3 Infusion MKIIs, 7 C2s....

Last edited by maritimesailor; 09/26/11 10:05 AM.
Re: Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? [Re: maritimesailor] #238356
09/27/11 06:22 AM
09/27/11 06:22 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39
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iMax Offline
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Hi Claus, I cannot comment on the Wildcat nor the Infusion. I've replaced my capricorn with a C2 this year and i'm really happy with the C2. The Capricorn was a very quick boat, especially upwind. Downwind it lacked the volume (Wildcat does not look to have a lot of volume up front either) which could lead to dodgy situations if you push it hard. The C2 has remained the upwind strength of the Cap but can be pushed so much harder downwind (like the Infusion). I've sailed Nacra's for years and was amazed about the buildquality of the Capricorn and now C2. Good luck with your choice.

Re: Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? [Re: iMax] #238521
10/03/11 09:04 AM
10/03/11 09:04 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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samc99us  Offline
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Solomon's Island, MD
Mmm, crappy Hobie steering, alright, time to save up the dough for an Infusion or Capricorn.



Scorpion F18
Re: Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? [Re: maritimesailor] #238525
10/03/11 09:25 AM
10/03/11 09:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Originally Posted by maritimesailor
Just go look at the top ten results from the NAs. 3 Infusion MKIIs, 7 C2s....


The Glasers sail the only Mk1.5 in existence - it isn't a Mk2.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? [Re: John Williams] #238527
10/03/11 10:38 AM
10/03/11 10:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Solomon's Island, MD
Differences? Is it a Mk1 w/ Mk2 foils and I'm assuming Glaser sails?


Scorpion F18
Re: Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? [Re: samc99us] #238532
10/03/11 11:10 AM
10/03/11 11:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
The Glaser's have an Infusion (not a Mk II) and WildCat boards. They plan to replace the WildCat boards with the Mark II boards and yes they have Glaser sails.



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? [Re: David Ingram] #238555
10/03/11 05:28 PM
10/03/11 05:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
On top of that, they have different spreaders and there were some "Pete the Schmeet" specials (in addition to the custom color). This boat was built for Pete Melvin. It isn't an out-of-the-box MkI and it predates the MkII... so the SoCal folks called it the 1.5.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? [Re: I20sailor] #238570
10/04/11 07:00 AM
10/04/11 07:00 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 36
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Gav F18 Offline
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Gav F18  Offline
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Posts: 36
Sry for the late reply.

The C2 just seems a much more balanced boat, both upwind and downwind (long offset marks are a hoot too.) The groove upwind is much easier to lock into upwind. If your crew can work the main properly you can just keep working the boat up higher and higher and you improve the apparent wind angles. If you drop out of the zone it's a simple task of easing off and starting all over again. I think the Tiger and the C2 would be about the same speed and angle upwind with good sailors driving, it's just a wider groove on the C2 so the average sailor can maintain a higher speed and angle. (Gavin Colby jumped on my Tiger once and was adamant they're as fast upwind as any of the new designs....with him on the boat I believe it, not so much with me in control.)

Downwind the two boats are poles apart. The design of the front sections of the hulls mean that it's much harder to fully bury the nose (it's can still be done easily enough....) but you don't get any of the awful rocking you get with the tiger when the breeze was on. The boat can be driven very hard downwind and is very reactive to steering so you've got a lot of control.

Technically the layout of the C2 is much better than the stock Tiger, the wing mast on the C2 is better than the old Tiger mast, the foils are better on the C2, the rotator can be adjusted from the wire, the overall workmanship of the boat is very good.

We're a lot faster in the fleet with the C2 compared to the Tiger. I put this down to being able to maintain a higher average speed around the course rather than a higher top speed.

The only downside I've found is that if/when you do tip over it's an absolute nightmare getting back on. The hulls are very high out of the water...

Other than that they're a great boat. And if you've got a problem you can email Brett or Greg Goodall and they'll get straight back to you with advice, very nice guys.

Re: Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? [Re: Gav F18] #238577
10/04/11 09:18 AM
10/04/11 09:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Hi Gav -

Regarding getting back on the boat; I first discovered that issue on a 2006 Capricorn. The trick is for the smaller of the two crew to ride the front beam down, either stepping or flipping around it to be on the tramp as the boat rights. It is pretty easy with some practice - while the heavier crew member keeps leaning back on the righting line and after the boat passes the tipping point, the smaller crew member can use the dolphin striker as a good handle to get back on the tramp before splashdown. For the crew member still in the water - don't waste time and energy trying to overcome the distance from the forward section of the trampoline unless the person is quite tall and fit. Go to the back of the boat. Quite easy and fast to get back aboard from there while the crew already on the tramp is keeping the boat parked and sorting out spaghetti.

Cheers -

j


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? [Re: I20sailor] #239467
10/28/11 11:21 AM
10/28/11 11:21 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
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maritimesailor Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
Regarding getting back into the boat, completely agree with John on how to get in. You can also try the "scoop" technique (taught to junior sailors in 420s) when one of you is large enough to get the boat back up solo. The smaller (lets say more fit ;-) person just stays in the water on the tramp side of the hulls, floating near the shroud base that is in the water. As the bigger crew brings the boat up, the "in the water" crew grabs the hiking strap and is magically "scooped" up into the boat as it rights. Makes recovery so much easier, as the person is now on the boat on the high side (keeps the boat from continuing to roll and flip over the other way), can drive, etc etc quickly.

This is a VERY good technique if you are ever a "rescuer" for another cat as well (i.e when you jump off a safety boat, your own boat, to help a tipped cat and its crew). Two of you bring it up while scooping the third up into the boat.

Re: Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? [Re: John Williams] #239535
10/31/11 10:12 AM
10/31/11 10:12 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 297
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rexdenton Offline
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rexdenton  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 297
Originally Posted by John Williams
Hi Gav -

... smaller of the two crew to ride the front beam down, either stepping or flipping around it to be on the tramp as the boat rights.

...For the crew member still in the water - don't waste time and energy trying to overcome the distance from the forward section of the trampoline unless the person is quite tall and fit.

Cheers -

j


That's the way to do it. I'd add that if the boat is moving forward, it's damn near impossible to pull yourself up on an infusion or cap from the front beam, whereas its actually not hard to do it from the back beam, even when it is moving. Getting on from the back also allows some improvised water based steering. As the boats usually have nearly neutral helm (i.e. they have been known to sail away quite a distance on their own...) one good idea is adding safety line under the tramp from the front beam to the back to hang onto when going to the back of the boat.

Last edited by rexdenton; 10/31/11 10:13 AM.

Nacra F18 #856
Re: Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? [Re: I20sailor] #239734
11/03/11 10:54 PM
11/03/11 10:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 36
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Gav F18 Offline
newbie
Gav F18  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 36
Had the pleasure of trying this out last Sunday. Back corner is definitely easier. Interestingly, the sailed performed very well with the window section punched out....by my head during the capsize....as my left leg was stuck under the hiking strap giving a very effective pivot point for the rest of my body...

Nice new window in there now....looks like a new sail, everyone should try it.

Re: Hate the steering on the Hobie Tiger - What's wrong? [Re: I20sailor] #239735
11/03/11 11:19 PM
11/03/11 11:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Did it. I had a 2006 Goodall main with a Tina-shaped hole in it. My fault for flipping us. As with your experience, the only upside was the new window.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.

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